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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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tobee · 02/09/2019 09:07

Thanks for the info @NoWordForFluffy and @woman19 .Smile

So I'm hoping that if we've all thought of this, the game that's being played, the trap that's being set, then do will the remain/anti no dealers. Hoping! Then trusting Hmmthey won't fall into the trap like a moth to a flame, to mix metaphors!

woman19 · 02/09/2019 09:10

Johnson is lifting policies from the ukips who lifted them from labour.

They were good policies, some of them.

Chaos under Ed Milliband..........

prettybird · 02/09/2019 09:10

I note that Antoinette Sandbach doesn't discount standing as an independent conservative (small c) if she were de-selected, when asked by Adam Boulton on All Out Politics.

"We'll have to see what happens."

BirdandSparrow · 02/09/2019 09:17

Trying to catch u with the thread, this was in the Guardian today www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/02/irish-border-after-brexit-all-ideas-beset-by-issues

prettybird · 02/09/2019 09:18

....she goes on to say that she has had many constituents, life long Conservatives, who have volunteered to campaign for her as an independent.

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 09:18

So the Tory party had to steal policies from UKIP to remain electable, and now from Labour ?

Being a Tory these days really seems to mean not standing for much ?

Carpediem1 · 02/09/2019 09:29

Thank you for the analysis - making some sense of what is really going on. All that money being splashed about for education and the police for a GE. I wonder if BJ has considered publicising their spending plans on the side of a bus? Have written twice to my useless Tory MP re his stance on Brexit/prorogation and received no replies. Just hoping with everything crossed that the opposition don't fall into a VONC trap.

Peregrina · 02/09/2019 09:33

....'twas me wot wrote the opening paragraph wink childishly wants the credit in my longer post from last night:

You are quite right, prettybird I read it and thought "I don't think I wrote that", but I was too busy catching up on the thread and hadn't yet gone back to find out who did.

What I did say was that events take on a life of their own which then become uncontrollable. Did Johnson/Cummings expect the level of protest we have already seen? I don't know.

Supposing he deselects Hammond. I would imagine that hHammond had a loyal following in his local party. If he stands as an Independent Conservative, how will his local party behave?

Ditto Philip Lee in Bracknell. The former Tory Agent there is no longer supporting the Tories. How much more of this is going on up and down the country with moderate Tories?

Lisette1940 · 02/09/2019 09:33

Pmk

CrunchyCarrot · 02/09/2019 09:34

'Rise of the Nazis' being shown on BBC 2 tonight. Chillingly relevant.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00084td

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 09:35

Thanks Red.
💐💐

Just been out leafleting (to ask voters to show support for their anti-No Deal Con MP).

Am tired!

Am also bracing for the week ahead. ☹️

Love 'BlowJob' and will certainly be using that henceforth.

💐💐💐 to everyone.

cherin · 02/09/2019 09:37

Still
Who here believes that BJ has the ability, stamina and (frankly) will to lead the country through the turmoil post a no deal?
He’s good at talking, but is an appalling doer, and decision maker. Even right now he’s taking ideas from others and repackaging them into a new agenda.
He’s no statesman material. Neither is JC, IMO but at least he doesn’t have a scroll-long list of demonstrable lies.
So
A) he has no understanding of his limits (but still, even in his personal life, come on, does he not see the pattern forming? He’s not a responsible grown up! He flutters here and there but doesn’t settle cause he can’t deal with responsibilities. Boring (Moriarty would say))
B) he’s being used by someone, and will be dropped once he’s done his function. Who’s coming next? Who’s manipulating him? Don’t say DC because he’s an individual. Creepy and weird, but ONE person. For this mess there must be an organisation. Russia? Usa? But it sounds so very spy movie, surely there were more discreet ways to pull strings?

So
What’s the bigger picture, the 2 years down the line?

The insurance industry has already moved 75 billion£ out of the city. Clearly it wasn’t them

Peregrina · 02/09/2019 09:43

As for Johnson/Cummings stealing Labour's ideas and throwing money at schools. A lot of people have long memories of what Gove was like when he was at Education. Will they be fooled? Or will they say, "we'll take the cash, thanks, but you can't buy our votes."?

prettybird · 02/09/2019 09:46

Dh has just made the point that the only former PM now who we've not heard from speaking against BlowJob's outrageous acts is Cameron Hmm

(He discounted May as her stepping down was her statement)

cherin · 02/09/2019 09:48

Talking about schools, I doubt any new policy will buy the votes of headmasters. Have you seen the gov guide for schools in case of no deal?
Please ensure you ask your suppliers they have a contingency plan in case of food shortages. You are allowed to change menus but remember you just provide free meals to entitled students.
Thanks a bunch! Of course a headmaster has nothing better to do than call his catering and ask about brexit! And if they reply no? (As is we have no brexit preparations cause there’s no bloody guidance that tells us what to do)
Seriously???

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 09:49

I think it'll take years (and a lot more than is being filed out) to actually see improvements in schools. Especially since the squeeze is partly hidden & in areas like SEND, where people just don't know what things should look like.

So I see those promises as a. Sweeteners for wavering Con MPs or b. Just promises - which will persuade those who are inclined to be persuaded and only them.

Let's face it, even if the GE we're in late Autumn, the money wouldn't be working its magic.

I hope people aren't so easily bought off. However, having been out leafleting this morning, I am again full of wonder at how much people really, really want to believe it's not as bad as it seems. A lot of humans do 75% of propaganda's work themselves. ☹️

woman19 · 02/09/2019 09:51

What Blair can't say:

Labour should not support GE. It would be their and our last one.

Executives who ban votes, threaten judges and closes legislatures don't hold elections.

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 09:51

Yes, Cherin.

And then, having sent out that piece of information/instruction to schools. And having received back confirmation from schools that it has been received and read, local authorities can then show on their Brexit preparedness forms that schools are Brexit-prepares.

It's crazy.

LonelyTiredandLow · 02/09/2019 09:52

Depending on how cynical you are there are some potential triggers coming up - I strongly suspect if no one on the remain side smashes a window/becomes aggressive enough to get into the papers, a paid disruptor/s will be set in motion to get an aggressive reaction started. When we predicted civil riots before we knew the remain marches have always been safe (as I pointed out to a relative worried I took dd) yet the ideology sold to Leavers is that it is US who will riot and be unsafe; which all ties in with the far right being "the great unwashed mob" as they like to call anyone who didn't vote for Brexit Hmm So I suspect an antagonist will be starting up sooner or later - like milkshake man on Farage.

Secondly the funds that were being commandeered for No Deal advertising/awareness could well be being used on a)police who are apparently outside Cummings home (another story for Leavers to fear remainers) b)being used as secretive pre-election funds c) being used to buy stories in certain papers d) all of the above.

LonelyTiredandLow · 02/09/2019 09:53

Sorry, the far LEFT being the great unwashed Blush

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 09:54

The stakes are very high, woman. ☹️

woman19 · 02/09/2019 09:54

Flowers thanks for leafletting cat
really want to believe it's not as bad as it seems
Instinctive survival technique, rather than doing that difficult 'thinky' thing.

woman19 · 02/09/2019 09:57

And then, having sent out that piece of information/instruction to schools
Will be making further enquiriesWink

To bring the country to a halt, I've always thought regular rolling school closures would do the trick.

Looks like that's what the crash outers have in mind.

TheElementsSong · 02/09/2019 10:11

PMK

Camomila · 02/09/2019 10:15

Thanks Red re: school meals...I think if there's food shortages, schools would probably feed the dc on fsm meals and tell everyone else to bring a packed lunch. It's not fantastic, because of the stigma around fsm, but I'm not sure what else they could do?

I'm hoping/praying for a lot of rebel Tories this week...not all of them are mega rich...some will have DC at state schools, maybe elderly parents needing medication...they may well be more scared of no deal than of losing their jobs.

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