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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 11:41

Granny I also have to wait until Brexit actually happens to apply for permanent residence, because there are no forms for EU citizens to apply for rights they have automatically.
Catch 22 Sad

Wenttoseainasieve · 02/09/2019 11:42

Jeremy Corbyn says on visit to Salford that he wants a general election once a no deal Brexit has been legislated against.

Stupid stupid stupid!

RHTawneyonabus · 02/09/2019 11:44

Think you have it bang to rights Red thanks for the new thread.

Was reading that trolls farms will often just make their bots do random unpredictable things. The goal isn’t to make people believe in one thing but make people believe they can’t believe anything.

It’s clear there is no longer a communally agreed objective reality on the country. There have always been different viewpoints of course but we’ve managed to split the country 50:50

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 11:44

We know Corbyn isn't very bright, but Starmer is, McDonnell is, several others in Labour top ranks.

Did he sneak out when they were all still busy finishing off their plans ? Confused

howabout · 02/09/2019 11:45

PMK thought.

Philip Hammond, David Gauke and Rory Stewart (haven't checked the rest) have 60% of the vote share in their constituencies. Their nearest rivals are the LibDems on 25ish %. If they stand as Independents they will split the Remain Tory / LibDem swing vote. So likeliest outcome is a new Tory gets in with 40% of the vote. IF instead they stepped aside or formed a pact with the LibDems then they could win on 45%.

Therefore threatening to stand as Independents indicates they are in fact NOT serious. However they have already decided to end their political careers with a nice pension / corporate cushion lined up.

ImNotYourGranny · 02/09/2019 11:45

BigChocFrenzy Can you apply from within Germany? Where we are you normally have to apply from your 'home' country. They're now giving brits a year's grace to sort out their paperwork without having to return to the UK. But the current processing times are around 2 years. It's a bloody mess.

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 11:46

I'm musing that if an Act is passed but BlowJob enacts his cunning plan to refuses to arrange for it to get Royal Assent so that it doesn't officially become law

Well the corollary to quis ipsos custodes custodiet is surely quæ ex lege leges regunt - what law governs the law ?

Lacking that written constitution, the only reason a law is a law is because it's passed the same precedents that previous laws have, and they are now the law ...

In theory, parliament is infallible, if that helps ...

Returning to the Queen - who summons the privy council, or chooses which councillors to call on for advice ?

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 11:47

While the politicians are ignoring business ...

Ed Conway@EdConwaySky

Ugh.
UK manufacturing output drops to 7yr low in Aug.

Orders, exports, optimism and employment all down.

Manufacturing sector now almost certainly in recession.

Question now is whether the rest of the economy is too...

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 11:47

Philip Hammond, David Gauke and Rory Stewart (haven't checked the rest) have 60% of the vote share in their constituencies. Their nearest rivals are the LibDems on 25ish %. If they stand as Independents they will split the Remain Tory / LibDem swing vote. So likeliest outcome is a new Tory gets in with 40% of the vote. IF instead they stepped aside or formed a pact with the LibDems then they could win on 45%.

Assuming all else remains equal ...

Myriade · 02/09/2019 11:48

PMK

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 11:48

Manufacturing sector now almost certainly in recession. Question now is whether the rest of the economy is too...

Falling tide, innit ?

Myriade · 02/09/2019 11:49

BCF, I thought the fcat the whole economy is in recession has alrady been established even thoough I cant ite remember where I got that idea from Blush

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 11:52

.

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
Moanranger · 02/09/2019 11:55

Well, I just got a letter from HMRC giving my business an EORI number. We deal in domestic services only. The letter assumes we trade goods. Must have been sent based on Companies House info.
However, it is COMPLETELY unhelpful where we are potentially vulnerable: the numerous monthly software licenses that cloud based businesses rely on, and that tend to be HQed in Europe ( Dublin, Luxembourg). No idea how that will pan out. A lot of this is monthly billing.
Fuckwits.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 11:58

Granny I don't know of any E27 countries requiring current residents to apply from their home country
Are you sure about the plans in your host country ? Confused
The EP and EU Commission said the process the member nations decide for Uk expats must be simple and cheap

What I've been told since the ref - by the residence offices in Germany - is to wait until the day after Brexit, when I become a citizen of a 3rd country, Sad
then apply
The process looks pretty easy and only a formality, as the German govt have promised we can all stay and all parties support this.

The only worries would be for pensioners relying on the UK govt to honour the EU system of paying back healthcare for their expat pensioners - the German govt can't force the UK to continue this

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/europa/Brexit/brexit-preparedness?openAccordionId=item-2208980-3-panel

.... on 31 July 2019, the German Government approved a bill for a situation where the UK withdraws from the EU without the Withdrawal Agreement,
< i.e. No Deal >

the aim being to create legal certainty for all UK nationals and their family members who have made use of the EU's freedom of movement
and made decisions affecting their lives in Germany in the legitimate expectation that this freedom of movement would continue.
< exactly - I wish the UK govt acknowledged this >

The bill ensures that all UK nationals and their families residing in Germany under EU freedom of movement rules at the time of withdrawal will be able to receive a residence permit.

Furthermore, the bill creates the necessary conditions under residence law for these persons to continue to have access to the German labour market.

The law must still be approved by the German Bundestag < expected to be a formality, no opposition so far >
It will only enter into force in case the UK withdraws without the Withdrawal Agreement.

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 12:00

Kate McCann @kateemccann
Asked if he would support a general election in any circumstances and again if he would back one if it meant no deal Jeremy Corbyn didn’t answer. In his speech he said election needed but asked repeatedly he hasn’t stated that clearly at all.

Just grabbed Mr Corbyn at the end of the press conference and he said Labour WILL back a general election under ANY circumstances if Boris Johnson were to call one: “Of course, we are the opposition party, we want a general election” he said... sadly not on camera!

We've long had the suspicion on this thread that Corbyn doesn't want to be PM. Indeed he has an interest in power which also involves disaster capitalism being successful. And he wants Brexit.

So yeah... Interesting

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 12:01

John Rentoul @johnrentoul
Counting down to clarification from Labour press office that Labour would not back a 2/3 vote under Fixed-term Parliaments Act that left PM to choose election date (eg 7 Nov, forcing no-deal Brexit)

Route to election has to be a new act writing the date (eg 17 Oct) in law

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woman19 · 02/09/2019 12:02

school meals...I think if there's food shortages, schools would probably feed the dc on fsm meals and tell everyone else to bring a packed lunch

No petrol = no teachers = no schools.

howabout · 02/09/2019 12:03

Myriade UK economy shrank in Q2 due to unwinding of stockpiling effect in Q1. However Q1 / Q2 average was positive and data to date suggest Q3 will also be positive. A technical recession is 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth (Germany looks to be heading this way according to Bundesbank etc). Reason is global slowdown and US/China. Difference is UK is domestic consumer driven and 80% services whereas Germany is export driven and mainly manufacturing. Brexit uncertainty won't be helping either though.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 12:04

Myriade recession is defined as negative growth for 2 successive quarters and iirc only the official figures for the last quarter were negative
Just a matter of time though

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 12:04

Tony Connelly @tconnellyrte
Here are the verbatim remarks from @EUCommission spokeswoman @MinaAndreeva in response to questions as to whether or not the UK had made concrete proposals to replace the backstop:

1/ We are willing to work constructively with Prime Minister Johnson to look at any proposals – any concrete proposals – that he may have as long as they are compatible with the Withdrawal Agreement.

2/ You are also aware that discussions at technical level will continue with the UK sherpa David Frost in Brussels in the Commisison this week...

3/ There were no meetings since last week. The meetings are resuming this week. During the weekend there have been no new developments on our side.

4/ These are ongoing talks that will depend on when we receive concrete proposals that are in line with the Withdrawal Agreement. On that basis we are then happy to engage.

5/ [They are] of course proposals that emerge as a result of talks, because precisely the idea is that they are compatible with the WA and for that you need two sides to agree. So it is a dynamic process.

6/ First President Juncker and PM Johnson spoke, as a result of that, following also the talks PM Johnson had with other European leaders, it was agreed to continue to discussing.

7/ We have always said from our side the door is open, 24/7, throughout this long process, so it was agreed we will meet now twice a week to move forward discussion because it’s in the EU’s interest, and [it's] our well stated postion that the UK leaves on 31 Oct with a WA.

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prettybird · 02/09/2019 12:05

Returning to the Queen - who summons the privy council, or chooses which councillors to call on for advice ?

Unfortunately, I think at the moment that that is JRM on both counts Sad

....don't know whether the Queen could also choose to do it Grin I presume that such a meeting of the Privy Council would over-ride JRM's one Wink but would be a constitutional nightmare Hmm

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 12:05

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
A moderate climb down from No10 now on Gove words yesterday, on whether PM would ignore legislation to block No Deal. PMOS: “Every government adheres to the law”.

The action will come in the detail instead, ie can Govt find a loophole in it. PMOS: “The Government would need to look at legislation brought forward to see what it does, and does not, require”.

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 12:06

Matt Chorley @mattchorley
So far the only Tory MP I can find who has been told directly by the whips about the threat to deselect them is Philip Hammond - and he called Mark Spencer, the chief whip, to ask if it was true

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 12:07

"Brexit uncertainty won't be helping either though."

It isn't just the uncertainty; it is the reality of lost customers as they realise No Deal is probable
and businesses in the UK choosing not to invest

  • iirc latest investment figures showed only 1/30 of the rate before the ref

Wait until No Deal has actually happened and then bitten for 6 months.
You ain't seen nothing yet