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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 08:18

Random 18, hence Johnson setting out all these very popular policies including ones directly lifted from Labour.

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 02/09/2019 08:19

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 02/09/2019 08:20

Thanks red

StrakerAndBarlow · 02/09/2019 08:20

PMK...Brew

ARoomWithoutADoor · 02/09/2019 08:21

Woman19

'what do these poor men do to each other when young in private school'

well, I know 'buggering the fags' is a stereotype ('scuse language)
Certainly bullying is rife so emotional self sufficiency essential, age 8
In 'my JRM-type's case he learned to prize intellect and winning an argument (whether you believed in it or not) above ALL else. Certainly above loyalty / emotional connection / believing in something. It allowed him to go on to make some eyewateringly harsh decisions (to my 'untutored' yet more experienced in life mind) whilst working in the Treasury / DWP. Not just no concern for how that might impact on communities but no real understanding at all.
And HUGE ambition. And an inability to admit when wrong.
All sounds depressingly familiar and being played out right now.

Hazardtired · 02/09/2019 08:21

Ta red

I'm trying to think of a metaphor for Cummings and I think he's like a boxer with a mood disorder. Atm we're seeing him in the ring, hypomanic, then the fight will be over and he'll disappear off training for his next round. Depression. Gym time-blogging, protein shakes-reading.

As with the ref Cummings is making brexit about something other than brexit the theme is destroying cons and a GE....I think? Who The fuck knows....do i care? Does it matter? Its always gonna be the opponent thought the punch was coming from x angle and then BAM it was a surprise upper cut.

The opposition need to ignore the fucker and not get in the ring. They can try finding a boxer in full training during an episode of mania to trump the hypomanic Cummings projects but...I don't fancy the consequences of that either!

IMO, because I'm crap at game playing, GNU is the only way forward in this round of Cummings.

After that....set fire to the ring in legislation? He'll try to come back one way or another.

Hoooo hope your week isn't to hectic. singing was right I'm not on any SM because of psychos. Try again to PM you in a bit. x

bellini ❤ doesn't seem like you to stress like that (not that i would know!) Hope everything's ok.

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 08:22

We don't often hear from the silent majority though.

Because they were invented by Nixon ?

The only silent people we have are those that don't vote. Whether everyone elses voice is heard is another matter. But they're not being silent. As a million man march earlier this year showed.

SingingLily · 02/09/2019 08:23

Cummings is only contracted until 31st October.

That could simply be a pragmatic decision. Remember that Cameron handed over excessive amounts of taxpayers' money to SpAds whose services were terminated abruptly when Theresa May took over as PM. Contracting Dominic Cummings only till 31 October simply underlines the real, as well as the psychological, importance of this date; it supports the "do or die" narrative and it doesn't carry the penalty of even more taxpayers' cash. If the gamble pays off, I would expect an extension to the contract.

borntobequiet · 02/09/2019 08:28

PMK. Thanks Red - so much - and thanks everyone.

OublietteBravo · 02/09/2019 08:30

PMK.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 08:32

Ooooh - I get quoted in the opening paragraph of the OP ShockGrin

And the more I think it, the more I think it's a trap, devised by Cummings who doesn't give a fuck what happens but who simultaneously thinks it's worth the gamble and is so arrogant he assumes he will win.

Calming peculiar cat picture sleeping in blissful ignorance on the bed on Saturday stopping me getting up Wink.

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 08:32

Also just came across these survey results from 2d ago on the BritainElects twitter feed don’t know if they’ve already been discussed here

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
boatyardblues · 02/09/2019 08:38

Weary PMK.

MissInnocentFace · 02/09/2019 08:44

Thanks Robert Harris for that discussion of the collapse of society on the Today programme... Confused

Genuine thank you to Red and BCF and everyone. Still lurking. Still horrified.

TheABC · 02/09/2019 08:48

So, it comes down to a giant game of chicken using our lives and livelihoods?

Cheers, Tories.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 08:48

....'twas me wot wrote the opening paragraph Wink childishly wants the credit Grin in my longer post from last night:

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

It's a big gamble as BlowJob might not win it but it's probably his best chance - before the impact of a No Deal Brexit hits. By talking No Deal tough, he gets Faragit and the Turquoise Party working with him rather than against him - he can always stab them in the back after the election, when he doesn't need them any more.

And anyway, even though it's a major gamble, Cummings a) likes gambling, especially against The Establishment and b) as a Nihilist, he doesn't really care whatever the result, as he has no loyalties and c) and contrarily he is so arrogant in his game playing abilities that he can't conceive on not winning Hmm

ghostofharrenhal · 02/09/2019 08:49

I just listened to that too MissInnocentFace. I feel proper scared now!

Mistigri · 02/09/2019 08:50

Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all

That's always been my view and that's why I've never thought no deal to be the most likely outcome.

All the drama is not about knife-edge negotiations with the EU, but about dealing with the BXP and engineering the circumstances for an election win.

I've always been sceptical about a pre-Brexit GE though I think the odds are rising. But it's a high risk strategy and crucially it requires the opposition to play ball. Timing is also very tight. And I think they underestimated the reaction to prorogation, and also the possibility that they might lose a court case.

Will MPs sit tight and go for a legislative method of preventing no deal? They need to hold their nerve.

ghostofharrenhal · 02/09/2019 08:51

And anyway, even though it's a major gamble, Cummings a) likes gambling, especially against The Establishment and b) as a Nihilist, he doesn't really care whatever the result, as he has no loyalties and c) and contrarily he is so arrogant in his game playing abilities that he can't conceive on not winning

I think this is very, very true. How the hell have we got to the point where this unelected disrupter seems to hold the future of our country in his hands?

Mistigri · 02/09/2019 08:54

It's a big gamble as BlowJob might not win it but it's probably his best chance - before the impact of a No Deal Brexit hits. By talking No Deal tough, he gets Faragit and the Turquoise Party working with him rather than against him - he can always stab them in the back after the election, when he doesn't need them any more.

Yes, agree.

Think you are either getting no-deal (less likely) or five years of a hard right, unscrupulous Johnson government (more likely). Frying pan or fire?

Johnson and Cummings overreached last week though, and they no longer have complete control of the narrative. They have lost control for eg on citizens rights with Brexit supporting papers and figures expressing concern. And they must be concerned about protests in Tory strongholds in southern England.

bellinisurge · 02/09/2019 08:57

Constant vigilance. Or Dreamies. Either is good.

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 08:58

For all his odiousness, Dominic Cummings isn't some sort of Lex Luther. He's being enabled by many around him. He's a totem. Moreover he's human so by definition fallible.

#justsayin'

woman19 · 02/09/2019 08:58

@davidallengreen
In the courts up and down the land, defendants can now say that if two cabinet ministers - Gove and Williamson - can treat compliance with the law as optional then so can they

@patrickwintour
Quite a moment when David Gauke, ex-Justice Secretary, feels compelled to say "It would be helpful if the govt could clarify if it believes in the rule of law."

Rule of law RIP.

fedup21 · 02/09/2019 08:59

Random 18, hence Johnson setting out all these very popular policies including ones directly lifted from Labour

Yep, absolutely.

Money for schools?
Money for the police?
Money for the NHS?

The Tories have been systematically pulling them all to bits in the last few years, but now there will be a GE, they will pull ‘extra money’ out of the hat!

lonelyplanetmum · 02/09/2019 09:00

Thanks* as ever RTB*

David Gauke on R4 agreeing with your analysis too.

On the issue of power at any price. The thing that occurred to me (rather sexistly and snobbishly) is looking at some of the voters on Faragist marches- If the price of power is courting their vote then I'd rather skip having the power thanks.

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