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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 11:27

I'm surprised Farage didn't get funding in USA, must be the pesky Irish lot refusing to deal with us if GFA is broken Wink

I thought the majority of Tories now wanted to No Deal and happily would break up the UK if it meant we Brexited? It was before school holidays but it was a shocking poll...

Mistigri · 03/09/2019 11:28

Then the journalists just need to publish the document they have seen and let Johnson and Cummings call it out as a forgery.

Not if it risks identifying or breaking the confidence of a source! First rule of serious journalism.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/09/2019 11:30

Co-chair of the 1922 committee Cheryl Gillan has just got into Number 10, followed by a number of CCHQ staff.

Is it possible 15% of the parliamentary Conservative party have written letters to Brady already. Is there any honeymoon period immunity. Wouldn't we have heard leaks if letters had been written?

QueenOfThorns · 03/09/2019 11:31

I thought the majority of Tories now wanted to No Deal and happily would break up the UK if it meant we Brexited?

That was Tory members, who are a bit more extreme than Tory voters, I think (I hope so, anyway).

Peregrina · 03/09/2019 11:32

Not if it risks identifying or breaking the confidence of a source! First rule of serious journalism.

Yes, I can see that, but is it necessarily going to be obvious who leaked the paper. I would be tempted to say Johnson or Cummings themselves, but I get the impression that the outrage is genuine, so it can't be them.

prettybird · 03/09/2019 11:34

That programme on "The Rise of the Nazis" was uncomfortable viewing Sad

As Sadiq Khan wrote in his opinion piece at the weekend (was it The Times or The Observer), history doesn't repeat per se, it rhymes Sad

Not sure whether the editing of the programme was deliberate (and it can't all have been deliberate even if it was indeed pointed, unless it had been made in the last 2 days Wink), but the parallels were striking. To the extent that dh and I were naming which current day politicians and lawyers were the equivalents of the German protagonists Sad

Will be watching next week's episode can't say I'm looking forward to it though .....unless of course it is pulled from the schedule as being too political during an election campaign Hmm

ithinkmycatistryingtokillme · 03/09/2019 11:35

What time does parliament start today?

Sostenueto · 03/09/2019 11:37

Just been o. TV about emails to prorogue parliament dated 15th August to Boris and Boris replying yes at the time when he was telling the public he didn't believe in proroguing.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 11:37

Alex Wickham@alexwickham
Oh no... Board of Deputies says it has protested to the government that observant Jews would not be able to vote in an October 14 election due to the festival of Succot. Not sure No10 thought that through...

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 11:38

Good luck, cherin my dear 💐
Thinking of you today

Tanith · 03/09/2019 11:38

This is the problem, isn’t it?

When you get yourself a reputation for duplicity, misleading and outright lying, people stop believing a word you say.

The Brexit Party would be both naive and stupid to believe the Conservative government that is currently in power - and I don’t think NF is that stupid, hence his threats.

Sostenueto · 03/09/2019 11:38

2.30 pm

Sostenueto · 03/09/2019 11:41

cherinFlowers

icannotremember · 03/09/2019 11:41

I'll vote Labour, and in my constituency they will definitely win. No need to email my MP so I have been emailing Tory rebels to let them know they have a lot of support and that their courage in standing up to Johnson is respected.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 03/09/2019 11:42

Echoing everyone else's good thoughts here cherin Thanks

JustAnotherPoster00 · 03/09/2019 11:43

Mary Creagh
@MaryCreaghMP
·
12h
Nobody in the Labour Party believes a word Boris Johnson-Cummings says.

We will not vote for an election where they can change the date & crash UK out of EU without consent of Parliament and the people.

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 11:43

I thought the majority of Tories now wanted to No Deal and happily would break up the UK if it meant we Brexited?

As with Labour, there needs to be a clear distinction between members, and voters. I think natural Tory voters really don't want no-deal, and are prepared to put their X where it matters.

One of the themes of the past few years has been how far parties have moved from the electorate they need to support them.

There's a good article in the BBC History magazine about how it was the German elite that greased the path to power for Hitler.

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 11:48

As Sadiq Khan wrote in his opinion piece at the weekend (was it The Times or The Observer), history doesn't repeat per se, it rhymes

That's one of the most succinct, almost poetic descriptions I've read in a while. Never heard it before, despite it being Mark Twain (apparently ...)

quoteinvestigator.com/2014/01/12/history-rhymes/

Is it a case of "Churchillian Drift" ? And if so, how curious ...

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 11:50

This reply has been deleted

This post has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

Dontlickthetrolley · 03/09/2019 11:52

I was wondering if Farage has now realised that what he wants is completely unattainable and his backing down gives him enough to be able to yell from the sidelines but not actually take any responsibility?

prettybird · 03/09/2019 11:53

it was the German elite that greased the path to power for Hitler.

That was the point that was made in The Rise of the Nazis last night Sad. How Hindenburg, Papen and (in particular) von Schleicher thought that they could manipulate Hitler Hmm. And von Schleicher ended up being killed during the Night of the Long Knives.

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 12:00

I was wondering if Farage has now realised that what he wants is completely unattainable and his backing down gives him enough to be able to yell from the sidelines but not actually take any responsibility?

How is he backing down ? Doubling down, yes. Bearing in mind he won't stand himself.

Who remembers the end of "The Wizard of Oz" ?

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 12:03

May wants the peerage that traditionally is awarded to each former PM who wants this
(also awarded to party hacks who've done bugger all)

I doubt she'd rock the boat

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 12:05

Sam Coates Sky @samcoatessky
Downing Street briefing

Pressed on whether he would obey any rebel legislation passed this week on an extension

“He will not ask for an extension. If we do lose control of order paper and those negs undermined then he would seek an early election”

No 10 briefing

It is simply wrong to say polling day cd be changed

Governments always abide by purdah rules

Plus it appears tomorrow’s spending review could be in written form, if the rebel control of order paper mean Governemnt don’t have control of timetable

No 10 briefing

Spokesman says handwritten comments by Johnson suggesting Sept sitting pointless during prorogue discussions absolutely compatible with gvt reasoning for queens speech decisions

Asked whether full disclosure of electronic messages has been done, including by Sir Mark Sedwill, Cabinet Secretary, they pledged to look into the question

They added all proper legal procedures would have been followed

NB I’ve got sources asking whether every electronic message that shd have been disclosed, has been disclosed, for the court cases in Scotland today and with Gina Miller on Thur

If there are WhatsApps or other messages suggesting prorogue decision done to halt opposition then 🔥

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DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 12:09

NB I’ve got sources asking whether every electronic message that shd have been disclosed, has been disclosed, for the court cases in Scotland today and with Gina Miller on Thur If there are WhatsApps or other messages suggesting prorogue decision done to halt opposition then...

That'll be interesting, with FB being a US company for a start. Although I would hope they wouldn't be needed, since we pay enough to buy Greenland for GCHQ.