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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 12:10

Chris White
SO24 application has now been tabled - here is the motion (1/2)

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
Westminstenders: It's a trap!
Westminstenders: It's a trap!
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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 12:11

And the final part of the motion (2/2)

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
Westminstenders: It's a trap!
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Basilpots · 03/09/2019 12:12

Johnson and Cummings are no mugs if this bill passes they will just spin it as Parliament tied our hands and stopped is getting a deal with the EU. Deflecting blame onto Reminers and EU yet again.

What happens if the legislation passes and Johnson refuses to act on it ??

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 12:12

Chris White @cgwomt
This is a masterful piece of drafting:
▫️ All stages of the Bill in Commons on Wednesday
▫️ 2nd Reading at 3pm, all remaining stages 5pm to 7pm
▫️ Govt cannot try to prorogue Parliament this week - this motion takes control of NI Executive Act and prevents a debate before Monday

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 12:14

Theo Usherwood @theousherwood
Key bits from No 10 briefing:

- Tonight’s vote c. 9pm.

- PMOS says Bill “a blueprint for legislative purgotory”. But EU can’t offer longer extension without MPs’ approval.

- There’s a gap between FTPA vote for GE and dissolution of Parl when date of ballot could be changed.

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PerkingFaintly · 03/09/2019 12:15

Sorry, haven't caught up.

For any Jewish voters concerned they might be affected by an election date (this or any other election): apply for a postal vote.

It doesn't even have to be posted. It can be dropped in at the polling station on the day – but you'll have the paper in your hand to fill in before polling day (IIUC that it's writing that is the problem).

lonelyplanetmum · 03/09/2019 12:16

Marcus Ball reporting that some further (appeal?) stage is possible in the misfeasance in public office case... that means Mr Johnson will need to instruct lawyers there too-it all helps to highlight the past deceits at least.

wheresmymojo · 03/09/2019 12:17

Ive absolutely lost the plot now.

If the Rebel Alliance bill is being read tomorrow (Weds) then what is the vote at c.9pm tonight?

woman19 · 03/09/2019 12:17

it was the German elite that greased the path to power for Hitler
Nope.
It was laziness and entitlement of the ordinary people who let it happen.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 12:18

Liar, liar, Y-fronts on fire

There is NO progress on a Brexit deal, no tabled UK alternatives to the backstop
BJ is not just waffling, he's lying

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/03/brussels-baffled-by-boris-johnsons-brexit-progress-claims

Brussels has responded with bafflement at Boris Johnson’s claims of progress in the Brexit talks,
with EU officials warning that discussions are going nowhere.

The prime minister and his cabinet have insisted that the outlines of a deal are in the making

and that attempts by MPs to rule out a no-deal exit will kill that positive momentum
< there is NO momentum, except downwards, like Sterling >

But officials said that more than two weeks after Johnson’s meeting with the German chancellor, Angela Merkel,
no alternatives to the backstop had been tabled
and that there had instead been a renewed clash over Brussels’ need for an immediately legally operable solution for Ireland.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 12:20

@severinncarrell and @grayinglasgow are live tweeting the Joanna cherry case.

Not following myself but

Steve Peers @stevepeers
Live tweeting from the hearing in the @joannaccherry case on prorogation of Parliament. An interesting detail..."heavily redacted" papers lodged by the UK government 🤐

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Sostenueto · 03/09/2019 12:20

As UK will still be in EU on the 14th October Boris the animal can go to Brussels and veto an extension to A50. And knowing what he's like by the shenanigans these past few weeks he would do that! It only takes one veto...

ExpletiveDelighted · 03/09/2019 12:20

I don't normally post here, find it hard to keep up with such busy threads but I read as much as I can. My MP (traditional toe-the-line Tory in a solid blue but remain voting constituency) has been silent recently so I have just emailed him to ask him to rebel. Not much hope but at least I tried.

thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2019 12:21

DGRossetti
History not repeating but rhyming also carries an allusion to Seumas Heaney's transportation of the concept, when he wrote of the moment when 'hope and history rhyme'.

It is a beautiful way of describing things. Apt with regards to historical events and the present and, with Heaney, a way of thinking about how we can succeed in taking events out of their seemingly inevitable unfolding & make them chime with our hopes.

Positive thoughts.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/09/2019 12:22

There is NO progress on a Brexit deal, no tabled UK alternatives to the backstop

Philip Hammond was very clear on this on Radio 4 this morning. The EU waits politely prepared to consider any backstop alternatives or anything else but no proposals at all are forthcoming from the gov.

Any pretence at EU dialogue now is a smokescreen for the domestic audience.

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 12:22

DGR re Boris Johnson-Cummings I was going for BoZo Cum but realise it sounds like a vaguely incontinent perverted clown Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 12:23

Mojo Today: A motion to take control of the order paper on Wednesday 4th Sept from 3pm

i.e. MPs first have to win a vote today, in order to be able to put the Anti No Deal Bill tomorrow

It will be very interesting to see how many votes the rebels get today
and of course, if they even get enough so they can take control tomorrow

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 12:24

My MP (traditional toe-the-line Tory in a solid blue but remain voting constituency) has been silent recently so I have just emailed him to ask him to rebel. Not much hope but at least I tried.

If I were minded to rebel, I'd not trumpet the fact in advance ... another danger for Boris Johnson-Cummings. By acting the tyrant so early, he's just forced dissent into the shadows - where it can do him most harm.

It's becoming clear very quickly that he's a bit dim.

Sostenueto · 03/09/2019 12:24

Those are the emails I mentioned up thread red

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 12:25

😂 BozoCum sounds an excellent description !

woman19 · 03/09/2019 12:26

I'll take the hope, cat Smile Brew Why not? Smile

TokyoSushi · 03/09/2019 12:29

As I understand it, the vote tonight is to decide whether they go ahead with the bill to prevent no deal/force Johnson to ask for an extension which is passed will receive it's second reading at 3pm tomorrow? Or I may be completely wrong!

SistemaAddict · 03/09/2019 12:29

I've written to my MP (again). He's a prat but you never know, he might see sense. He's young though and probably not got the balls to stand up for principles over his career.

When is the vote? Trying to catch up but people are mummy, mummy, mummying me 😩

prettybird · 03/09/2019 12:32

Good for you ExpletiveDelighted Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 12:34

Today is Emergency Debate under Standing Order 28, called by the Rebel Alliance

Presumably Bercow will let MPs amend that motion, in order to take control of the parliamentary timetable tomorrow
and hence introduce the Anti No Deal bill