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Brexit

Westminstenders: Prorogation

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2019 11:10

Its come to this.

Boris Johnson is to ask the Queen for permission to suspend parliament.

There are several legal challenges in the system to prevent this from happening.

It is unlikely to be able to stopped and the Queen is unlikely to intervene either. To do so would expose the Monarchy directly to a political threat which could lead to the downfall of the Crown if the cards lined up. Johnson has deliberate set up the situations where if she does, he is on the 'side of the people' whilst she is on the 'side of the establishment'. If she does nothing, she might be exposed still but none action, can be spun as political neutrality.

As David Allen Green points out:
^David Allen Green @davidallengreen
This is now the realm of pure politics

No court is likely to intervene - and it is not obvious what remedy a court could even grant so as to satisfactorily resolve the matter

"Not justiciable" as judges sometimes say

As we have seen so far, the opposition have been completely outclassed when it comes to 'pure politics' partly because of tribalism, partly because they lacked the capacity to understand and imagine how bad this could get - they never thought Johnson would go this far (massive tactical mistake) and partly because they so far do not understand whats driving this and have not produced and alternative narrative and explaination to counter those social and political fractures. Indeed everything they are doing is only serving to reinforce and widen those rifts and their complete lack of self awareness has been to blame. Johnson not only sees these fractures, he understands them, knows how to exploit them and most importantly is willing to do anything to retain power.

Authoritarians are always driven by this lust for power and are won't stop for anything. Thats why they are so dangerous and why checks and balances were put into the system. The trouble is the opposition didn't read the signs and are flapping in the wind now its reached the point where they suddenly realise its too far gone to be able to do much. The runaway train is firmly off the rails.

This all comes a day after the opposition apparently have agree a strategy to oppose No Deal. Which seems to include a VoNC. Remember this will always require Tory Rebels as even working together the Opposition haven't got the numbers - especially considering there are a few Labour Brexiteers.

This is being framed as a coalition of anti-democrats (which is something of a contradiction on several levels) by the government and the Brexit Party.

They have signed a pledge to set up an alternative parliament if government does prorogue parliament. This is full on civil war era stuff aka as a full blown constitutional crisis. Its actively into dangerous terrority. And as such, we very much into talking about the very real possibility of civil unrest. This is no longer something that can be considered hyperbole.

The timetable of this would see parliament prorogued just a few days into September (next week), closed to prepare for a new Queen's Speech and returning around the 17th October remembering the crucial final EU sumit on the 17th October. A VoNC doesn't necessarily mean the government will go though. There is no legal requirement to force the government to stand down. We may yet end up with a situation of two governments claiming legitmacy at the same time in late October. Prime Ministers Corbyn and Johnson.

A GE might eventually be the result of such a constitutional crisis but we would be way past 31st October before that happens.

Would we end up with an extension in such circumstances? Well the Prime Minister has to ask for one formally from the EU and the EU have to agree to one.

The problem being, who do the EU recognise as our PM?

We also have things coming into legal effect on the 1st November which would otherwise need revoking by parliament.

Which Parliament?

Things are going to get very very messy indeed.

OP posts:
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SequinnedSlippers · 28/08/2019 12:50

Tone is very much “Serfs of Airstrip One: Know Your Place”.

Apileofballyhoo · 28/08/2019 12:50

Lastly, also heard an interview with Green Party co leader Johnathan Bartley where he called for legal, parliamentary, and protest elements to stop this happening. He called protesters out onto the streets around Westminster. So if this happens let’s be very clear about who called those people out there first.

So if this happens let’s be very clear about who called those people out there first.

Louise, what do you mean by the above?

Hooo there was no civil war in 1930s Germany. Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 28/08/2019 12:50

I wonder if MPs would have the ovaries & balls to set up an alternative Parliament

  • and whether they could decide on where, when, who etc before the Queen's speech !

Also, with the Party Conferences during that time, when Parliament is normally in recess anyway,
I wonder how many days such an alternative Parliament would actually sit for Hmm

ListeningQuietly · 28/08/2019 12:50

Sad and Angry

pumkinspicetime · 28/08/2019 12:51

Oh my goodness, I don't have anything sensible to say.
Written to Brexit Boris loving MP to point out this wasn't the taking back control promised.

ImNotYourGranny · 28/08/2019 12:53

I’m trying and failing to understand what’s going on today. In simple terms, why has BJ stopped parliament? I mean what are his reasons according to him?

According to him, normal process after a new government is formed. Parliament is parogued, new queens speech setting out new plans, and everything then carries on as normal. So basically, nothing to see here, all totally normal, move along folks.

And clearly forgetting to mention that it doesn't normally happen in the middle of major upheaval and is usually only for a few days, not a whole month.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/08/2019 12:54

"there was no civil war in 1930s Germany."

No, attempts at opposition to Hitler were disorganised and fizzled out
Then his thugs took over and overt opposition became a death sentence

I don't expect deliberate state murders, or even internment,
However, I've long thought it possible that if the govt gets all macho at mass protests
and troops are called in, that we see a Bloody Sunday

ImNotYourGranny · 28/08/2019 12:55

Has Boris still got his water cannons stashed away somewhere?

prettybird · 28/08/2019 12:57

So if this happens let’s be very clear about who called those people out there first.

I'm sure that Louise is not suggesting that people should not peacefully demonstrate their displeasure at this constitutional outrage, even if that's how it comes across Confused She's normally more reasonable than that.

DarlingNikita · 28/08/2019 12:59

Thanks Red.

From the last thread:

Seems there's a reasonable case for it(?) - this is the longest Parliament has ever been in session and Parliament is always prorogued before a Queens Speech.
Obv there is another motive here but, on the face of it, not unconstitutional?

I agree. Johnson, although I hate to say it, has played a blinder in terms of staying technically on the right side of things.

Of course his actions may be to the letter of the law/constitution, but we know and he knows that they are very much not in the spirit. But as DAG says in Red's quote, it is now about pure politics, nothing else.

DGRossetti · 28/08/2019 12:59

^No, attempts at opposition to Hitler were disorganised and fizzled out
Then his thugs took over and overt opposition became a death sentence^

Like BoJo, Hitler was a "joke" politician.

There's a BBC series coming up about the rise of the Nazis. (It's called "the news" Sad)

PostNotInHaste · 28/08/2019 12:59

PMK with no words

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2019 13:00

The U.K. never had the need to “put everything in writing in a single document”. The flexibility is showing a double edge...

I really wish that people would get this fallacy out of their heads.

The US has a written constitution which isn't working terribly well at the moment.

The problem is more the faith that the constitution with always protect democracy. That false sense of security is the issue not the constitution itself.

Constitutions fall when you get to the point where the truth is no longer obvious or is massively distorted and the systems of checks and balances are undermined. This takes a build up of lack of trust in those institutions rather than the constitution written or otherwise.

It's about this culture of intimidation and climate of fear building up, or a lack of cooperation between a fragmented opposition and tribalism to the point of stupidity amongst those who do believe in democracy and who are supposed to enforce the constitution and in so doing fail to do so.

This is the point.

A constitution is only as good as the power used to enforce it.

By the time you get to this point in a full blown constitutional failure, the wheels have well and truly come off the track and it's impossible to stop because the authoritarian forces have so much momentum behind them.

Trying to stop it in its tracks will equally result in unrest.

The outcome of the whole situation has been civil unrest as a very real option from much earlier on than anyone has really talked about and realised. Only a few recognised it. (Some on here have).

I do get pissed off at this notion of a written constitution though.

It misses the point and ignores the details of how we got here in the first place.

The format of our constitution only forms a small part of it.

OP posts:
Dockray · 28/08/2019 13:03

That petition is flying- I signed it an hour ago at 57k and it is now 142k.

bellinisurge · 28/08/2019 13:03

The former Lord Chancellor has just explained how this is not normal. Historically, in the past 10 years, the longest Parliament has been suspended in advance of the Queen's Speech is 20 days. This is FIVE WEEKS.
Don't be fooled.

flouncyfanny · 28/08/2019 13:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yolofish · 28/08/2019 13:04

I have nothing clever to add, but oh fuck....

LouiseCollins28 · 28/08/2019 13:10

Sorry I appear to have caused confusion I am absolutely not saying people shouldn’t protest, presuming they do so peacefully, of course they should! It’s if things get to “not peaceful” that I would have cause to object.

flouncyfanny · 28/08/2019 13:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sostenueto · 28/08/2019 13:12

Fucked both front and back can't go for a no confidence vote as there isn't the numbers no time to get legislation through so yep double fucked.

DGRossetti · 28/08/2019 13:13

A constitution is merely a safety mechanism. It protects against accident, but can never protect against malice - that's in the hands of the people trusted to use it.

As Jefferson (?) said The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

As soon as you allow a culture to develop that looks down on learning, trivialises issues, and freezes out talk of politics as "boring" in favour of "Love Island", you're not really paying attention as a society.

Incidentally, whatever happened to punk ? Not the music, necessarily, but that incredible highly politicised youth movement of the late 70s ? Where are todays angry generation ?

ImNotYourGranny · 28/08/2019 13:14

This is terrifying. How can people scoff at the suggestion that we're on the path to civil war?

Clive Lewis MP:

If Boris shuts down Parliament to carry out his No-Deal Brexit, I and other MPs will defend democracy.

The police will have to remove us from the chamber. We will call on people to take to the streets.

We will call an extraordinary session of Parliament.

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2019 13:16

there was no civil war in 1930s Germany.

No. We look to be doing things in a rather more British fashion...

OP posts:
prettybird · 28/08/2019 13:16

You did open yourself up to it though Louise as there was nothing that Johnathon Bartley said that suggested that he was encouraging illegal protests, so there would be nothing wrong if people did come out on the streets to protest in response to what he said Confused

Unless you were wanting to give him the credit for people protesting legally in the streets Wink

DGRossetti · 28/08/2019 13:16

Sorry I appear to have caused confusion I am absolutely not saying people shouldn’t protest, presuming they do so peacefully, of course they should! It’s if things get to “not peaceful” that I would have cause to object.

For some reason I've just remembered the salt mine scene from "Gandhi" ... and the same of Sophie Scholl.

I wonder if I should stop learning stuff. It only seems to depress me.