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Brexit

Westministenders: EARRRTHHHHHQQQUUUAAKKKKEEEE

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/05/2019 23:06

Well.

Thats a surprise!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Basilpots · 28/05/2019 09:25

Pergrina BXP have put up a local business man who was on Secret Millionaire so I would guess as far as possible they will try to keep to local issues like an independent candidate would minimising need for a pesky national manifesto.

Basilpots · 28/05/2019 09:37

Red Thanks for the fascinating analysis.

I hadn’t realised Tory’s loss if ‘centre’ voters to Labour it got hidden by the switching of Kippers.

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2019 09:38

Boris Johnson 24
Nigel Adams, Stuart Andrew, Jake Berry, Peter Bone, Andrew Bridgen, Conor Burns, Simon Clarke, Nadine Dorries, Nigel Evans, Zac Goldsmith, Jo Johnson, David Jones, Ann Main, Johnny Mercer, Amanda Milling, Sheryll Murray, Mike Penning, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Andrew Rossindell, John Whittingdale, Gavin Williamson, Ross Thomson, Anne-Marie Trevelyan

Boris has a few big names in there. I believe they are mostly ERG, the obvious exception being his brother. I think they are a mix of ERG who didn't back May's deal and some who did.

Slightly less nutty than Raab

Hunt 29
Harriet Baldwin, Crispin Blunt, Steve Brine, James Cartlidge, Jo Churchill, Leo Doherty, Philip Dunne, Mark Field, Vicky Ford, Mike Freer, Mark Garnier, Nus Ghani, Robert Goodwill, Richard Graham, Oliver Heald, Nick Herbert, Andrew Jones, Daniel Kawczynski, John Lamont, Patrick McLoughlin, Alan Mak, David Morris, James Morris, Sarah Newton, Will Quince, John Penrose, Alec Shelbrooke, Helen Whateley

No big names here. There's a couple of definitely more remainy Tories and on the whole they fall under the 'moderate' bracket. I think they all stayed loyal to May.

Might give you a bit of context to Hunt saying he doesn't support no deal.

Gove 22
Peter Aldous, Richard Bacon, Jack Brereton, Alberto Costa, George Eustice,, George Freeman, Nick Gibb, John Hayes, Trudy Harrison, Kevin Hollinrake, Stephen Kerr, Edward Leigh, Rachel Maclean, Nicky Morgan, Bob Neill, Guy Opperman, Bob Seely, John Stevenson, Mel Stride, Tom Tugendhat, Ed Vaizey, Giles Watling

Gove on the other hand has a bunch of more vocal Tory rebels who defied May and stood up for Parliament and are remainy. Edward Leigh is an interesting one though. A definite Brexiteer but definitely a dealer.

The other candidates seem to be struggling for support at the moment. They might get a few more but these four are definitely the front runners at this stage and it's interesting to see where they are drawing support from.

I can't say that any are drawing support which you could say marks them as a unity candidate yet.

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RedToothBrush · 28/05/2019 09:44

I hadn’t realised Tory’s loss if ‘centre’ voters to Labour it got hidden by the switching of Kippers.

One of the problems both parties have is the switching of economic demographic in support.

Labour traditionally was the working class economically worse off with the Conservative Party having a middle class core.

This has been flipping and that's a real issue that neither knows quite how to deal with.

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Pilcrow · 28/05/2019 10:00

Christ. My MP is in the Johnson camp. I always knew he was a fully-fledged repellent loon but this confirms it.

Piggywaspushed · 28/05/2019 10:03

Yeah, mine too : effing Dorries. Vile vile person.

Loletta · 28/05/2019 10:03

Any chance of Rory Stewart Red?
Seems to me to be the best of a terrible bunch

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2019 10:04

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
So @Jeremy_Hunt makes the 'good cop' gambit for #Brexit in his @BBCr4today interview with @bbcnickrobinson - can that work? Mmmm. It is interesting. Thread /1

Hunt's first point correct: the EU stopped giving concessions in Dec-April because it had no confidence that it would get May over the line. Why make concessions for nothing?

So might a new (more moderate) PM make a difference? /2

This is clearly Hunt's contention - he'll be less scary to the EU than the 'populist' (as EU has them) @DominicRaab @BorisJohnson and so the EU might be more accommodating.

And indeed, such a position does throw up potentially awkward optics for the EU /3

The EU has made a mantra out of the Withdrawal Agreement been fixed/closed, and it will argue that it negotiated this deal with a government, not a personality, and that it stands whoever takes charge.

But that risks looking very intransigent if earnest good cop Hunt is there/4

Because as @Mij_Europe points out, there WAS a brief window back at the start of the year when serious member state diplomats (and I don't just mean Poland) were not completely ruling out ideas like a long time-limit to the Irish backstop /5

That brief moment - and it was put to the test - all evaporated when @theresa_may took completely the opposite lesson from her 230-vote margin defeat than the EU had expected. /6

Instead of shifting towards the 'middle ground' (a customs union, essentially) she went the 'full Malthouse', started trying to unpick her own deal, even briefly flirted with 'no deal'. At that point the EU side completely lost it. /7

Is it possible to reset the negotiation to access that compromise space again? The EU don't want to go there...but they equally don't want a 'no deal'.

Might a 'moderate' leader like @Jeremy_Hunt (at least today's version of Hunt) make them more disposed? /8

Yes it is true no-one wants to 'throw the Irish' under the bus....but equally, there's plenty of member states who (having bought Barnier's deal) are now showing some remorse over the fact that we are approaching a dangerous rupture because of the Irish border. /9

So that's all the 'good news'...the prospect of reaching back in time and grasping that half-glimpsed compromise that avoids a car-crash that no-one really wants.

But here's the hard part... /10

Hunt talks vaguely about a compromise bring in other parties (not labour), but the minute you get into the detail of that, you hit the same old walls.

Take a 'time-limit' on the backstop, which is what EU side reckons UK most likely to go at..../11

Does the DUP buy that? If so why? Again, I had conversations many months ago when 3-5 year time limits weren't completely ruled out of court in Belfast, at least to the point of "we'd have to consider it".

And in any event, it's still essentially the backstop../12

Let's say the EU agreed a 5-10 year time limit, it's still (in the absence of unicorn alternative arrangements) a one-way ticket to a customs union.

With Farage breathing down everyone's neck, with Labour now sinking its teeth into 2nd ref, can that really fly? /13

Recall that in all those Strasbourg declarations the UK really wrung dry the good faith assurances cards. But could these be re-packaged? And if they were, is a figure as flip-floppy and bloodless as @Jeremy_Hunt the man to resell them? /14

Or could Boris and Raab sell them? As I wrote recently do you need a hawk to sell the peace?

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/25/berlin-budapest-bracing-boris-could-offer-chance-reset-brexit/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
From Berlin to Budapest, they are bracing for Boris - but he could offer a chance to reset Brexit talks

Which points to a Catch-22 for the EU side.../15

Officials and dips clear that they could not be seen to reward 'populist' Boris/Raab PM "by giving them what they refused May" - and yet, if they gave those same concessions to someone like Hunt, they'd doubt he could sell them - so he'd be in same spot as May was. /16

Brexit is just so godammed circular, binary and unspinnable!

Hunt tries something reasonable, but when you focus on trying to open up the space, the walls just close in again. /17

And none of the above really takes in the EU's own politics.

The are also entrenched on the backstop. They might regret @MichelBarnier backstop gambit...but can they really go back on it now? Certainly not for Boris or Raab. And if for Hunt or similar, is it worth it? /18

Just consider how overwhelmingl pro-EU Ireland has become, and how febrile the UK's departure makes the wider intra-EU27 dynamics. At this point, there really isn't that much political space for a sudden change of heart. /19

Because in the end - despite all the ludicrous denials - the #Brexit deal is born of gravity. It is the ineluctable product of the choices posed by Brexit.

The real danger now is that the only route to a deal, is via a 'no deal'. We'll get there, but at huge cost.

ENDS/20

Also

Tamara Cohen @tamcohen
Exclusive:

Michael Gove would allow 3 million EU nationals living in the UK at the time of the referendum British citizenship at no cost, in order to heal Brexit divisions if he becomes Prime Minister, Sky News can confirm

news.sky.com/story/michael-gove-to-offer-three-million-eu-nationals-free-british-passports-11729757

Gove offers EU citizens a massive goodwill gesture... Interesting way to try to rebuild faith with EU isn't it?

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Mistigri · 28/05/2019 10:05

I hadn’t realised Tory’s loss if ‘centre’ voters to Labour it got hidden by the switching of Kippers.

You have to be careful with switching diagrams. They always throw up some improbable switches, suggesting that either (a) a substantial minority of people vote in quite a random way (quite possible) or (b) that this sort of survey can easily over-represent the numbers of people making improbable switches (it probably only takes one or two in a dataset). Or both.

Is the sample representative? Are people telling the truth? Do they remember correctly?

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2019 10:06

Stewart has two backers. He hasn't attracted the 'remain wing' by the look of it, who you would think would be his more natural allies. It's hard to see who will back him I'm afraid.

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1tisILeClerc · 28/05/2019 10:09

{Michael Gove would allow 3 million EU nationals living in the UK at the time of the referendum British citizenship at no cost, in order to heal Brexit divisions if he becomes Prime Minister, Sky News can confirm
news.sky.com/story/michael-gove-to-offer-three-million-eu-nationals-free-british-passports-11729757
Gove offers EU citizens a massive goodwill gesture... Interesting way to try to rebuild faith with EU isn't it?}

So that's only from the referendum, so all arriving in the last 3 years are excluded?
So like most 'government' generosity, give with one hand and take with two.

RedToothBrush · 28/05/2019 10:11

Very true Mistigri. The LD to UKIP to Labour to Conservative switchers are interesting folk! (yes they exist!)

But I do think there are general trends which can be identified.

I mean how many here were Labour voters who went either green or Liberal Democrat?

Same 'bubble' doing the same thing.

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RedToothBrush · 28/05/2019 10:13

So that's only from the referendum, so all arriving in the last 3 years are excluded?
So like most 'government' generosity, give with one hand and take with two.

There is the ever present argument that they knew the UK was leaving the EU when they came...

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DGRossetti · 28/05/2019 10:15

Michael Gove would allow 3 million EU nationals living in the UK at the time of the referendum British citizenship at no cost,

Just talk.

Ask anyone connected with Windrush.

Basilpots · 28/05/2019 10:27

Piggy personally I consider single issue parties to be pressure groups.

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 28/05/2019 10:32

This is a good long read about Stewart. Apologies if it's been posted already, I've slightly lost track of what I've read where!

Eton, Balliol, parachuted in to a safe seat etc etc...but he does seem to be a thoughtful and intelligent man (mildly pretentious navel-gazing tendencies also apparent). The stuff about his political leanings is interesting - never voted Tory apparently.

If I was voting in the leadership elections (which, obviously, I'm not) I would vote for him.

Obviously he hasn't a hope in hell.

DGRossetti · 28/05/2019 10:36

I mean how many here were Labour voters who went either green or Liberal Democrat?

Or how many non Labour voters eventually rejected Labour for LD/Green ?

DGRossetti · 28/05/2019 10:41

I don't think there's any need to spend a second more discussing Goves statement. Quite aside from the fact he would need to be PM to enact it, there's hardly a glittering track record of any Tory actually matching fine words with deeds. That's before you start to dig into the (lack of) detail and realise it's a crock anyway.

The only point of interest about it, is it could be interpreted by a halfway competent media (so no danger there) as a leitmotif for a possible PV/2nd Ref to try and woo the non-nutter Leavers or resigned Remainers.

Tanith · 28/05/2019 11:02

“I am guessing Hunt has read Lord Ashcroft's polls. As a born-again Brexiteer, this could be the only reason.”

More likely, the local Conservatives have had a firm word in his ear. They’re still reeling from the local elections.

BoreOfWhabylon · 28/05/2019 11:05

And now Kit Malthouse has thrown his hat into the ring...

BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2019 11:13

Andrew Bridgen supporting Boris ? - that means not all the crazies prefer Raab

woman19 · 28/05/2019 11:18

pointythings and anyone else #deniedmyvote.
Phone on now on LBC right now on this.
Presenter is quoting up to2million votes suppressed. Shock
Ballot papers sent by private company, not Royal Mail, and via Netherlands. Shock

BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2019 11:23

imo, 3-5 years for the backstop would be a total non-starter for the EU
Regardless of any UK charm offensive / threats

IF - big IF - the E27 agreed on a limit, it would be 10+ years OR transition extended 10 years.
That realistically is how long a future deal would take to negotiate anyway

Ireland can still veto any limit on the backstop and I'd expect a hardcore of 10 smaller countries to support them if they do so

  • other small countries won't accept the precedent of being thrown under the bus for the bigger guys

Maybe however, the UK can offer Ireland some goodies though, e.g guaranteed border polls ever 7 years,
or even gradual joint rule of NI

I also read the DUP were very worried after meetings with the ERG, which suggested an NI-only backstop is not unthinkable, if it gives freedom for a US-GB FTA

DGRossetti · 28/05/2019 11:24

Presenter is quoting up to2million votes suppressed.

Oh dear, never mind. Let's move on.

I still don't think anything will be done.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/05/2019 11:26

Brexiters claim the EU is just using the border to punish Britain
BUT
ERG tweet shows again that Brexiters regard the RoI as a HOSTAGE which should be used:

Much of their anger at May was that she didn't (openly) threaten this hostage

Crispin Blunt MP@CrispinBlunt 10 May

"UK side had the money, the people, the huge trade deficit, amongst other advantages, including a hostage, the RoI,^^
if EU behaved like this.

We capitulated.

Olly Robbins reported application for Belgian citizenship when it’s over helps explain the mindset of our negotiators. " Confused

< You twat ! that Belgian citizenship thing was just a JOKE in a film ! >