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Brexit

Westministenders: EARRRTHHHHHQQQUUUAAKKKKEEEE

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/05/2019 23:06

Well.

Thats a surprise!

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 27/05/2019 22:48

I will shed absolutely no tears if Johnson becomes PM and then Brexit destroys him too. Karma.

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2019 22:56

This is lengthy and boring, but a collection of thoughts about what the EU election highlights beyond rather shallow leave v remain tropes.

I've just done a bit of number crunching on what Ashcroft says.
He says that 2017 Con Voters who voted on Thursday break down into:
1,512,147 in total who actually voted Con
3,516517 who voted Brexit Party (out of 5,248,533 total votes for BP)
808,148 who voted LD (out of 3,367,284 total votes for LD)
So a total of 5,836,812 voters (out of 13,636,684 who voted Tory in 2017).

Of these 5.8 million he has
2,356,066 who went from the Con to Brexit Party who support No Deal
1,160,451 who went from the Con to Brexit Party who DON'T support No Deal (but he doesn't specify what they do support).
544,373 who stayed with the Con Party who support May's Deal
257,065 who stayed with the Con Party who support a Different Deal
211,700 who stayed with the Con Party who support No Deal
423,401 who stayed with the Party who support Remain
727,333 who went to the LDs who support Remain
80,815 who went to the LDs but don't support Remain (its not clear what they do support).

Thats a total of 2,567,766 out of the 5,836,812 the 2017 Tory voters who support no deal. Or roughly 44%.

He has 1,898,919 returning from the Brexit Party to the Tories for next GE
And 177,792 returning from the LD to the Tories for next GE
This would make a total of 3,588,858 currently who are semi-reliable voters planning to vote Tory.

If you assume the worst case, you have 2,110,619 no dealers who are willing to vote Tory based on that. Roughly 58.5%.

But you perhaps would logically think that more extreme no dealers are likely to stay with the brexit party and those who don't support no deal would be the returnees. The lowest level of no dealers possible is 950,168. Roughly 26.4%.

So of the core Loyal Tory Vote which is likely to turnout come rain or shine its probably less than 50% who support no deal. Perhaps you can take those votes for granted. Perhaps you can get more from supporting no deal at a GE... but... (I'll come back to this later)

Its worth noting here that according to Ashcroft's previous data, the Cons lost 1,133,423 voters to Lab between 2015 and 2017, they lost 566,711 to the LD between 2015 and 2017 and gained 2,212,226 voters from UKIP. That was a net gain of 512,092. But its also important to note that UKIP didn't stand in many places in 2017 for tactical financial reasons so this choice to vote Conservative isn't necessarily a first choice anyway.

Also worth pointing out that despite getting 4,376,635 votes at the 2014 EU elections, Farage could only manage 3,881,099 in 2015. Despite the turnout being much higher at the GE (66.2% in 2015 v 35.6 in 2014). Yes Farage got 5,248,533 but that was his 2014 hard core plus a section of the Tory hardcore vote.

You have to conclude that for the most part those who vote UKIP/Brexit Party are not terribly representative of the population as a whole, because they are a) more highly motivated b) much more interested in politics as a whole c) almost always vote.

For the Conservatives to make gains off the back of the ref, they have to be attracting voters who voted Leave in 2016 but don't generally vote. The ones that the ref was won from. Whilst being the incumbent government.

I also note that support for no deal in the general population seems to be somewhere between 25% and 33% no higher than that. And if thats split between the Brexit Party and the Conservatives thats a bit of a problem.

The whole thing about chasing a no deal policy, is chasing a hard core of the vote, which a) isn't necessarily representative of the population wanting no deal b) is going to be split with a Farage led Brexit Party in a way it wasn't in 2017 c) they are the incumbent government who are never going to pick up a lot of the protest leave votes from 2016, no matter what they do d) nor are they going to pick up protest votes at the handling of brexit e) most people are apathetic about Brexit.

My point being where are they going to hover all these extra votes from at GE?

When you look at the numbers above, they actually are pretty meaningless in many respects. The just go round and round in circles and are dead similar and point to a small voting hard core that isn't changing.

Focusing purely on Brexit, which pursing no deal actively forces you to do by default, is going to backfire. Sure you can wheel out Boris as a figure to attract voters but how far is that going to go, if the NHS is dying on its arse?

Whether its no deal or a deal not what anyone is really ultimately interested in. They just want their hospital appointment.

I do think that the Tory Party Election Leadership in this respect has lost all sight of anything and certainly has absoluetely no comprehension of anything else. Its extreme naval gazing.

What does the No Deal Tory Leader offer anyone but a tiny number of people? They probably don't even get past their own party hard core of voters, when you look closely at the numbers!

It will be interesting to see, who - if anyone - gets past Brexit in the contest.

Conversely the Labour Party possibly are not caught in quite the same trap. Their issues are wider than Brexit and are about wider policy and cultural differences between regions. And might dissolve as Brexit is fucked up by the next Tory leader.

Its also worth pointing out that the LDs have the same ceiling issue as the Brexit Party in some ways too. I find it quite something that they won 3,367,284 votes on Thursday on that low turnout compared to 2,371,910 in the 2017 GE and 2,415,916 in the 2015 GE. Again they are highly motivated voters. (Peak LD in 2010 was 6,836,824).

You have to ask the question, what else do all these parties have to offer voters who aren't remotely arsed about Brexit? Policy or personality or tribalism. What the majority of the public are interested in? The usual stuff about health, education etc. And none of that is in sight.

And that IS where the Greens have something. And that for me, is interesting and shows direction. And perhaps is THE most interesting thing out of it all.

OP posts:
Mistigri · 27/05/2019 23:02

Someone on twitter made the good point that Ashford's data model has not been validated because he did not make any predictions close to the election that would allow it to be tested.

So I think his numbers need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Other pollsters got relatively close to the result. It would be interesting to see their take.

Mistigri · 27/05/2019 23:07

Also, French media take on the results (Libé is our Guardian):

Europe resists

  • Turnout up
  • Far right contained
  • Green breakthrough
On the continental scale, the Europe that some said was on the decline raises its head. A real awakening, or a flash in the pan?
Westministenders: EARRRTHHHHHQQQUUUAAKKKKEEEE
woman19 · 27/05/2019 23:07

I voted Green, and they give me the heeby jeebies.
They are very anti semitic. Sad

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2019 23:07

Indeed mistigri. Still hard to get over 50% support for no deal amongst the Tory faithful by ashcroft numbers (which you might expect to the contrary) and still had to work out how a no deal policy expands Tory appeal, if the Brexit Party exists. All it is, is a trial balloon for expanding the Overton window to the right. The more you chase it, the more it expands to the right.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 27/05/2019 23:08

Can anyone remember which pollsters did get the nearest prediction to the actual result?

I know that the LibDems were crossing their fingers that the more optimistic polls would be right, which for them, they were.

My impression is that Farage's 'new' party didn't actually do quite as well as the predictions?

woman19 · 27/05/2019 23:09

A real awakening, or a flash in the pan
Naah. It's our next generation. Smile

SwedishEdith · 27/05/2019 23:09

Well, well.

Steven Swinford
‏*@Steven*_Swinford

Jeremy Hunt warns the Tories will be committing 'political suicide' if they attempt to force through no-deal Brexit

He says in Telegraph that Brexiteer candidates are offering a 'prospectus for disaster' and risk 'extinction' of Tory Party

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 27/05/2019 23:10

Blimey red that’s a lot of analysis, impressive.

I think you are right, most of the public doesn’t actually care very much about Brexit. Not enough to actually look at the details.

Peregrina · 27/05/2019 23:13

Haven't the Tories already started to commit suicide? They have taken the overdose of paracetamol but the effects haven't kicked in yet.

woman19 · 27/05/2019 23:15

What does the No Deal Tory Leader offer anyone but a tiny number of people

My impression is that Farage's 'new' party didn't actually do quite as well as the predictions

Like 'peak trans' they have reached peak nutter brexit?

Same funders after all. Wink

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 27/05/2019 23:17

He says in Telegraph that Brexiteer candidates are offering a 'prospectus for disaster' and risk 'extinction' of Tory Party

I honestly don’t see how the Tories can survive this.

I think the sanest plan would be for Teresa May to revoke article 50 now. Then we can have a general election where each party is actually forced to state a clear Brexit policy.

Corbyn will probably try fence sitting still. The Brexit Party would have to do more than simply whine that Brexit hasn’t happened yet. We might actually find out what the country wants.

Can’t see her doing it though, pretty sure it would be the end of the Tories.

Revoking Article 50. Would be the best way to actually help the country May says she loves. The Tories are dead, no need to destroy the country with them.

woman19 · 27/05/2019 23:24

Would be the best way to actually help the country May says she loves
She loves grotesque expensive unflattering clothes, not the British populace.
She's definitely english though.Wink

Mistigri · 27/05/2019 23:25

More French perspective here

www.liberation.fr/planete/2019/05/27/pour-les-europhobes-une-victoire-en-trompe-l-oeil_1730036

TL;DR: Brexit put the heebie-jeebies up other populist European parties, who this time ran on a "reform the EU" ticket rather than a "smash the EU" one. Nevertheless, their message did not really resonate with voters and their gains were minor. Plus, the nationalists are split into two groups in the EP (Farage + AfD and Le Pen + Salvini) and the two groups don't see eye to eye and will have little influence. Also, M5S is leaving the populist groups and may join ALDE (!).

1tisILeClerc · 27/05/2019 23:38

{ think you are right, most of the public doesn’t actually care very much about Brexit. Not enough to actually look at the details.}

About 6% as a guess?

It's just that 52/48 and other 'significant' numbers keep popping up.
OK it's late but a little music

jessicawessica · 27/05/2019 23:42

What happens if there is a 2nd Referendum and it goes pretty much the same as the 1st.....then what happens?

Peregrina · 27/05/2019 23:45

Just looking at the results again now that they are all in I felt slightly more encouraged:
Brexit 29 seats
LD+Green + SNP+PC+SF+Alliance =29

with 1,133,491 more votes that Farage got.

I have left out the Tories and Labour, but just do notice that Labour didn't actually do quite as badly as theTories, but I suspect they were a bit lucky with the way the seats got allocated.

Now wouldn't it be good if on the evening of 6th June, May said you lot and revoked A50? I don't think it will happen!

1tisILeClerc · 28/05/2019 00:05

jessicawessica
The UK leaves and no regrets if it is shown to be an unbiased referendum.
It would have to have a sensible margin to make it valid, say 60/40%

Icantreachthepretzels · 28/05/2019 00:49

What happens if there is a 2nd Referendum and it goes pretty much the same as the 1st.....then what happens?

That rather depends on what question they ask. If it was a straight rerun (which no one in their right mind would advocate) then we remain in this awful purgatory of having no way out, as the thing we are doing is not defined, with either extension after extension or crash out - whichever the EU chooses for us.

If 'leave' is clearly defined - and that would have to be the W.A because there is no other form of leave that the EU is willing to discuss until the W.A is signed then we leave with the W.A and continue along in this sort of purgatory as the terms of the trade deal get hammered out - and hard and soft brexit are argued over endlessly, and businesses slowly bleed out of Britain.
If 'leave' is defined as 'no deal' - the we crash out - utter disaster ... until eventually we capitulate and sign up to the W.A (because we have to sign this before they will start trade negotiations with us), only from a place of complete weakness and economic devastation, from which we may never recover. Again - no one sane would advocate this as being an option in the question.

If we have another referendum and we vote to leave - then we leave. But there is no way it won't be painful. And the only way to actually break the impasse - and therefore make the referendum worth the while of running - is to clearly state exactly what leave looks like before hand. Brexiteers won't want this doing - because once you define it, it is clear to see that it is less good than what we have at the moment. But anything less - and it solves nothing, but wastes more time and money.

mathanxiety · 28/05/2019 02:13

Surely Farage is going to have to come up with a few policies now? He can’t just keep waffling about “democracy” and “respecting the vote” and other such nonsense

No, all he needs is an audience and a megaphone.

The whole point of the 'Brexit party' is that it offers slogans and not substance, simple solutions that can be painted on the side of a bus instead of policy. Its appeal is to emotion. As long as its followers believe their leader is on their side, one of them, they feel ok.

NoWordForFluffy · 28/05/2019 06:07

Red, that's interesting analysis. How do you think those numbers work (in relation to member numbers who support no deal) for the forthcoming leadership election. Do you think Hunt has any influence to turn the no deal tide amongst those voting?

Cherrypi · 28/05/2019 06:40

When asked about his policies on the radio Farage mentioned getting rid of the House of Lords and electoral reform.

1tisILeClerc · 28/05/2019 07:19

{Surely Farage is going to have to come up with a few policies now?}

Farage and the ERG make money from the financial instability caused by the various 'announcements'.
The more 'shocking' the announcement the more they make.
He does not need to 'win' anything for the 'common man' but just keep the boat rocking. Gold trading and speculation was his former 'job'. There is I believe a link with Russia through gold.
Of course for the more ambitious, crashing out of the EU will 'earn' Mogg and others a LOT more money than the continual boat rocking.

borntobequiet · 28/05/2019 07:20

UKIP policy was to reform HOL and introduce proportional representation, so nothing new there, unless he now means to simply abolish the upper chamber.

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