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Brexit

Westminstenders: Lets get on with...

939 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2019 09:48

Admitting the mandate for leaving has expired.

The newspapers today are full of Talk of both Corbyn and May panicking that Brexit is destroying their parties, so after nearly 3 years of party politics they have decided that actually they can agree on something in the next week or so. Not because it's in the national interest but because they don't fancy mutual self assured destruction.

If they do manage to cobble something together then it with be rushed and shite.

If they don't they will be punished at the Euro elections by a Remain / Leave pincer action.

They can spin it all they like from their local election disaster that it was people wanting to get on with Brexit. It certainly does not change the reality that those people who were most likely to vote are fed up with the pair of them. And that there is a strong indication that the most motivated voters are remain leaning. Perhaps its true that leavers stayed home in protest. If they did, what will they do if the Brexit Party stand candidates at a general election? Maybe they will vote, but you can't argue that they view voting itself as an important act. Spoilt ballots were up, but not that up. If the pair do manage a deal, then we have Brexited which might satisfy some. The trouble is the underlying issues are not to do with the European Union. And even if we leave with a deal that does not resolve our future trading relationship. The poison that is Brexit won't end. And the voters will realise that soon enough. Leaving even with a deal will harm the economy, and that's only going to fuel discontent.

It's therefore hard to see where either party go from here. Not when they are effectively split internally. The poison is here to stay.

Spinning it as 'it shows the public want us to get on with Brexit' isn't going to help their cause with voters who still think leaving is a national disaster. Those voters will still think its a national disaster and will be even more pissed at being ignored and dismissed once again.

Where is the incentive to return to voting Labour or Conservative?

The Euro Elections, if they go ahead, will therefore be about one thing and one thing only: turnout. Even if the Brexit Party do relatively well, it will be about how many turnout in comparison to the locals and in comparison to the last EU elections. Whilst they might not admit the reality of things, ultimately all Labour and Conservatives really care about is securing the vote of people who will vote because voting intention doesn't win them seats if people don't turnout.

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DGRossetti · 06/05/2019 17:30

without even letting people to actually vote to overturn the referendum.

I think we can stop with this "overturn the referendum" shit now. It's been 3 years. If the referendum were a local election, it'd be expired by next year.

If some people aren't happy with that, they need to take it up with Cameron, and the Tory party, not take it out on the country.

woodpigeons · 06/05/2019 17:31

I agree that no deal should not be an option.
The British public is too ill informed. Some think no deal means scrap the whole thing, therefore remain, others will dismiss any talk of what no deal means to the country and themselves as ‘project fear’.
I don’t think decisions of this magnitude should ever be decided by a referendum. Many politicians don’t seem to have got their head around the implications of the referendum.
How can we expect the public, especially those who believe the lies of venal politicians and the tabloid press, to make any sort of informed decision.
But I really don’t have any answers. I was reading in the Fintan O’Toole book ‘Heroic Failure’ about a government that collapsed as it had only 2 MPs remaining.
I though I’d bookmarked it but can’t find it.
Anyway we’ve not got enough time to let the parties destroy themselves and I can’t think of any way to precipitate their collapse.
I’m lost.

Icantreachthepretzels · 06/05/2019 17:36

I think we can stop with this "overturn the referendum" shit now. It's been 3 years. If the referendum were a local election, it'd be expired by next year.

I don't disagree that the mandate is long past. But that still doesn't explain how we can end up with a remain result without remain having been given as an option. And people would have more right to feel aggrieved if they voted on their brexit preferences only to be told we were remaining than they would if the government just said they were going to revoke.
It's fine to just revoke and tell brexiters to suck it up - the mandate is past and they haven't achieved anything in the masses of time they've had. But you can't get people to vote on on a set of options and then tell them the answer is actually an option not given and not expect them to grumble a little.

DGRossetti · 06/05/2019 17:41

But that still doesn't explain how we can end up with a remain result without remain having been given as an option

Why does anything have to be "explained". I could give you a list as long as my arm about shit that has never been "explained" to me about significant events in my lifetime. Let's take a hobby-horse of mine - the decapitation by shooting of Jean Charles de Menenzes on a London tube train in broad daylight. No one has ever "explained" to me how that managed to happen, and not a single person - not one - faced the inside of a courtroom.

And I don't care how sneery it sounds, why waste any time "explaining" when we damn well know there will be as many people who choose not to understand the explanation as there will be people who can't understand the explanation.

You can tell there's steam coming out of my ears ... the results of Thursday and the reaction to them has lit the touch paper.

DGRossetti · 06/05/2019 17:45

I don’t think decisions of this magnitude should ever be decided by a referendum. Many politicians don’t seem to have got their head around the implications of the referendum.

Or, alternatively, they have - and it's scaring seven shades of shit out of them ? Because if we aren't careful (and when I say "we" I mean the useless shower of incompetent wankers that got themselves elected) we'll end up where everything has to be "put to the public" with howls of outrage and "denying democracy" when they aren't.

In fact, if Labour and Tory wanted to reach past my deep cynicism, and announcement of a new law prohibiting referendums in the UK would be one way.

Imagine a Brexit referendum every five years ?

Peregrina · 06/05/2019 17:46

I am quite sure myself if an EU Army ever came about and the UK were still members, that the UK and France would be jockeying for which country led it.

If it did come about and the UK wasn't in, there would be an awful lot of mardy right wing Tories who would think that an exception should be made for us and we should be allowed to join, and then start jockeying for the leadership.

woman19 · 06/05/2019 17:48

@KayBurley
Meghan in labour

@krishgm
Had her down for Change UK myself

Icantreachthepretzels · 06/05/2019 17:50

Why does anything have to be "explained".

Because you have said we can have a referendum without remain as an option but keep it as the default and I don't understand exactly how you envisage it working. I'm not asking the government to explain your idea to the electorate - I'm asking you how you envisage your idea will work?

woodpigeons · 06/05/2019 17:57

Another Chomsky here.

Ellie56 · 06/05/2019 18:03

Considering that taking no deal off the table was what Parliament voted overwhelmingly for, I can't believe they would allow that option to be on any PV ballot paper.

So the only alternatives are to revoke Article 50 or accept the Withdrawal Agreement that Parliament have already voted down 3 times already. Hmm

Unless by some miracle, Labour and the Tories conjure up some other sort of "deal" between them to put to the people.

On second thoughts perhaps not...

LonelyTiredandLow · 06/05/2019 18:11

@tobee I'm slightly more of a left leaning anarchist than Ghandi Grin
Also sounds about right!

LonelyTiredandLow · 06/05/2019 18:16

Oh yes, that's also Chomsky then (didn't want to put in my details Wink)

Re another referendum I think perhaps calling it Remain is problematic. Maybe 'Revoke with a change to revisit' which is obvious but might help leavers deal with the realities.

1tisILeClerc · 06/05/2019 18:16

{Considering that taking no deal off the table was what Parliament voted overwhelmingly for, I can't believe they would allow that option to be on any PV ballot paper.}

The problem being that as far as the EU is concerned it is simply 'internal politics' and they (obviously) can't intervene. However the HoC can't override international law and what they voted on is 'irrelevant' internationally.
The EU are just waiting for an 'in or out' decision and it is up to the UK to decide. No deal being what happens automatically of course on 31 October.

LonelyTiredandLow · 06/05/2019 18:16

Change = chance

TalkinPaece · 06/05/2019 18:20

Yet another Chomsky !

NoWordForFluffy · 06/05/2019 18:25

I can't imagine being the type of person who'd agree to vast swathes of those questions, it has to be said.

I got Bernie Sanders, but I don't know huge amounts about him really!

Littlespaces · 06/05/2019 18:31

The trouble with living in an area half Remain and half Leave is that you occasionally bump into some loud mouthed people. Just sat waiting for ds in pub and along came two very grumpy bitter old men.

All the normal rubbish - Leave means leave, they were going to start a revolution (quite how I don't know), they were going to shoot people, anyone young was a snowflake, anti immigrant, blah, blah, blah.

TalkinPaece · 06/05/2019 18:34

Little
A dear friend on my FB feed is sharing loads of stuff about how the Leave voters are winning all the arguments and that a hard Brexit will be just great
I let it wash past

Littlespaces · 06/05/2019 18:40

I left and went for a walk around the town instead.

Much nicer.

1tisILeClerc · 06/05/2019 18:42

{they were going to start a revolution (quite how I don't know), they were going to shoot people}

I suppose that is one way to reduce the problems of housing and the UC bill.

tobee · 06/05/2019 19:04

My dc got Bernie!

Yes I wasn't sure about putting my name in but you only had to put in any old name and it came up onscreen Lonely. No email required. No sending off anywhere. Except they've probably been spying on my movements on the internet and nothing is really secret dontcha know

HateIsNotGood · 06/05/2019 19:05

If some grumpy, bitter old men in a pub actually used the term "snowflake" you have my permission to shoot me.

TalkinPaece · 06/05/2019 19:41

I know I shouldn't

but its a Bank Holiday and I just cannot help myself

and I assume many of you are already in the know

but this page is just delicious

www.facebook.com/britainbitesbackofficial

(it it a true Brexiter page, no irony at all from the moderators)

Peregrina · 06/05/2019 19:46

Oh dear TiP - that confirms the worst stereotypes of Leavers. Now we know that they just aren't like that, don't we? Grin.

Slightly more seriously, I don't know why the Leavers who aren't batshit crazy don't disown the ones who are - they let their side down.

Littlespaces · 06/05/2019 19:51

I know lovely Leave voters. The grumpy civil war old men are just one annoying example.

I'm hoping the UK returns to some sort of friendly (probably poorer) normality.

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