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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2019 10:10

I hope the events of this week give the ERG the kick up the backside over this that they need.

I doubt it will, but I live in hope. The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

I'll leave this here instead as a reminder of what choice Brexit was always going to come down to.

Happy Easter everyone.

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot
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BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2019 23:20

Ian Dunt - very gloomy view

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/04/26/week-in-review-an-equal-opportunities-disaster-zone

But even these monstrous imbeciles are doing better than the Remain parties, who have somehow managed to take a moment of surging momentum and turn it into a internecine bloodsport.

The Greens, Liberal Democrats and Change UK are currently in a battle to take votes off each other, in a process which could well see all of them deprived of a seat.

The Greens and Lib Dems are as much to blame as anyone.
The Lib Dems picked candidates early, making any cooperation harder to achieve.
The Greens seem completely oblivious to the damage they're doing.

They act like it is business as normal, when in fact we are in a national emergency and their response to it demonstrates they are not substantial or farsighted enough to meet its challenges.

The failings of Change UK are more significant.
They promised three things:
to do politics in a new way, to be competent about how they conducted it, and to stop Brexit.
So far, they are doing politics the old way, badly, in a manner which makes Brexit more likely.

They learned nothing from the referendum.
They have developed precisely no new techniques, no sense of immediacy, no moral imperative - none of the firm, fixed communication deployed so effectively by Leave in 2016.
It's really unforgivable to see so few lessons comprehended in all this time. What on earth have they been doing?

From high to low, Brexit to Remain, Labour to Tory, it is a masterclass in inadequacy and irresponsibility.

Icantreachthepretzels · 26/04/2019 23:29

but the website did say they'd email to tell remain voters the best way to vote in their region

This just isn't the most productive and efficient way of getting the message across though! (especially if the emails are going into people's spam Hmm) How many people are going to bother to sign up for an email -and then days later bother to check their spam? When they could literally just post a list of regions and who to vote for. No sign up necessary.
North west: Lib dem
North East: Green
South West: Green etc etc
It;s literally all that website needs to be and seems to be what they are determinedly not doing. Like BCF said - a bad website is worse than no website.

I agree with those of the mindset of voting tactically for the party line and not worrying about who the actual candidate is for the EU elections (will vote lib dem in local as they are the only people who have posted anything through the letter box, are a remain party and could do quite well). For most Lib Dem/ Green and even a lot of chuk candidates they are people we actually know nothing about and - apart from the three already sitting (none in my region) - are not current MEPs. Plus their names won't appear on the ballot. It's almost immaterial who they are - it's the manifesto they are standing on that matters.

Which is a shame for Richard Corbett, in my region - unless they can convince labour to change their leaflets. But if they're already printed and money is tight - they won't do that.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2019 23:30

What to watch:
The NEC decision on Tuesday would make a difference - if passed, then a vote for Labour would be claimed as a vote for PV
Let's see if Corbyn / Milne stop it

Robert Pestonn@Peston*

Labour MPs and MEPs are signing letter to party’s ruling NEC calling for its EU elections manifesto to contain unambiguous commitment to confirmatory Brexit referendum.
Attached is crucial section.

Momentous decision for the NEC on Tuesday.

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot
Icantreachthepretzels · 26/04/2019 23:33

I really want them to do that. It would make things so much easier if I could just vote labour. They won't though. Corbyn is too stubborn.

tobee · 26/04/2019 23:38

It is a tall order for the Tiggers. They emerged in a very ad hoc way (obvs) and are a one issue party. Except they're not even that, as some Labour mps left because of anti Semitism as well as eu. They don't really have an overall cohesive stance and are still more a protest party than anything. I'm sure, if they survive, they will be in flux.

tobee · 26/04/2019 23:39

*in flux for a while

BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2019 23:42

The UK really is an anomaly
.... in case you wondered why the populists in other EU countries have gien up NEXIT, FREXIT etc

Darren McCaffrey@DarrenEuronews

OPINION POLL:

EU28, Kantar poll: European Union Membership Referendum

% Remain

Ireland 91%
Netherlands 91%
Sweden 89%
Spain 88%
Germany 89%
Belgium 87%
Portugal 92%
Greece 75%
Bulgaria 83%
France 74%
Estonia 89%
Slovakia 86%
Italy 72%
Hungary 81%
Denmark 86%
Poland 89%
Romania 89%

LonelyTiredandLow · 26/04/2019 23:55

Well, yes BigChoc and the only party to have reached out is LD.

TIG are similar to Brexit Party in that they appear to be a one trick pony.
I've yet to see a policy on NHS/homeless/schools for e.g. Can they work together given their different backgrounds?

Greens could get a surge since the extinction rebellion. I do hope so, however again their focus is very narrow. Rightly so as it reflects their main concern, however for many we need an in-between to fix damage done by austerity.

woodpigeons · 27/04/2019 00:00

That website does say it will be updated

Brexitisshit · 27/04/2019 00:00

BCF, in a list situation like this where you vote for a party not a candidate, you have no idea how many MEPs (if any) a party will get in any region and they may have a mix of pro-EU and Euro-sceptic MEP candidates on the list (pretty sure that is the case for Labour in London as the pro-Corbyn candidate is eurosceptic & there was a leak that they were planning placing her higher on the list than Seb Dance, though they later backtracked). If they have even one eurosceptic candidate are you therefore going to refuse to vote for the party just in case your vote returns a eurosceptic MEP?

I agree with NoWord - highly likely given past experience that a vote for Labour will be misconstrued as a vote for Brexit even though the majority of their MEP candidates seem pro-EU.

I really don’t think this message has filtered through. I have lots of remainer friends sharing pro-Labour messages etc. There is a very strong impression (or delusion?) that Labour is pro-remain but just playing a long game. Someone even shared with me the most rage inducing Another Angry Voice (?) article on how everyone should vote Labour in EU elections.

My PIL think JC is being very clever and it’s a strategy to retain leavers and remainers. I can’t believe it myself, but if true - based on the Labour remainers I know - the strategy seems to be working. There is very little remainer backlash/disillusionment with Labour in evidence among my friends.

My area has mostly Conservative & UKIP MEPs at present. Splitting the pro-EU vote is a huge worry - how many people have been paying enough attention to know a vote for Labour is (interpreted as) a vote for Brexit? There is a very dangerous middling position where enough people desert Labour to lose them a seat, but the vote is dispersed among Green/Lib Dem/ChangeUK and none reach the threshold for a seat. I’d be much happier with an extra Labour MEP so I’d be kicking myself if the result of voting for one of the others just meant an extra Leave nutter got in.

I’m just keeping everything crossed Labour come off the fence in the preferred direction before the vote.

Brexitisshit · 27/04/2019 00:25

Norman Lamb seemed to be saying he was disappointed his colleagues stuck rigidly to PV /Revoke options rather than voting pragmatically in the indicative votes. Seems to fit with what many said on this thread too so I don’t think it necessarily makes him pro-Brexit. There may be more background to the story, but taken at face value it seems fine to me.

However, there is another Lib Dem, Stephen Lloyd (?), who resigned the party whip to vote for the WA.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2019 00:32

Brexit I'd look at where on the list the anti-EU candidate was
and consider how many seats the party would get - there are published predictors

Any risk that my vote would help elect someone anti-EU and I wouldn't vote for that party
(unless to block BREX / UKIP)
If a supposedly Remain party puts an anti-EU candidate high on their list, then they don't take their Remain policy seriously

However, as a floating voter, I've never had party loyalty and I've always looked at the candidates' views & records
So, personally I'd look at all parties whose #1 candidate was strongly pro-EU
I understand that others decide differently

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2019 00:34

Norman Lamb promised his constituents in his 2017 GE campaign that he'd vote for Brexit and work to carry out the 2016 referendum result

I don't know if any unsuccessful LDem candidates did the same, but he was the only LDem Brexiter elected

tobee · 27/04/2019 01:06

Just doing some late night housework while listening to brexitcast and I suddenly remembered the days when the Green Party was the Ecology Party. It was always some bearded bloke with glasses wearing shorts and Jesus creepers with beige socks.

Simpler times! Sigh. Smile

borntobequiet · 27/04/2019 07:06

It’s the Lib Dem Stephen Lloyd who supports Brexit, because his constituency (Eastbourne) voted Leave. I heard Norman Lamb, who is well respected and influential on health, esp mental health, being interviewed about his decision to vote for other than Remain options in the indicative votes. He said it was in the spirit of compromise, which was the point of the indicative votes, and he was annoyed that his LD colleagues had shown no willingness to compromise.

QueenOfThorns · 27/04/2019 07:13

I think that the remain voter website is going to do what people want, they just haven’t done it yet. What would be the point of doing it now if the tactics needed to change nearer the election date? Perhaps the results of the local elections will make an impact, plus it still seems possible that Labour could become pro-PV.

At the moment, they seem to be focusing on getting the vote out - the deadline for voter registration hasn’t passed yet.

borntobequiet · 27/04/2019 07:22

CUK can afford to be a one trick pony right now because the EU election is a one trick election. CUK MPs could align with, for example, Guy Verhofstadt’s Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe grouping.
I can understand why a party consisting of refugees from other parties would find it difficult to operate in a different way. First, the system forces it to behave in a certain way. Secondly, individuals have come up through the system - it validates them- it takes time to develop a new mindset. I’m struck by how, when I have moved house, it’s always taken me about six months to change my patterns of behaviour (turn right here instead of left, use this shop because it’s on my new way home, force myself to change doctor’s surgery, go to a different cinema, give my correct new postcode without thinking). CUK people are still in this stage, and it’s more difficult for them because to push my analogy further, they have to drive past their old house on the way to the new one.

borntobequiet · 27/04/2019 07:24

X post with Brexitisshit, love your name.

Iambuffy · 27/04/2019 07:39

Our lib dem candidate in 2017 was a leaver....

borntobequiet · 27/04/2019 08:19

There (or was) a Lib Dem Leave voice, which seems to have been driven by a perception that the EU is overwhelmingly centralising capitalist bureaucracy, stifling localism. Other LDs (such as myself, when I was one) thought of it as an organisation under which localism (and regionalism) could thrive.
www.libdemvoice.org/liberal-leave-campaign-49779.html

OhYouBadBadKitten · 27/04/2019 08:35

I'm in Catherine Bearder's region. She's very good, I've been to some of her talks and met her a few times. So I'll be voting Lib Dem.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2019 08:43

Change UK: offer option of a 'no-deal Brexit' in a People's Vote ?

Since No Deal is the most popular Brexit for Leavers, I can see it would avoid a PV being seen as Remain vs BRINO
However, in the unlikely event that Labour & Tories agree a new PD, then surely that should be the Leave option

Even if they don't, imo the WA would be a much better PV option, although less popular,
because No Deal would still mean us signing up to the main WA terms later, i.e. "No Deal" is misleading.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/heidi-allen-interview-in-the-house-magazine-1-6018710

Heidi Allen, the party's interim leader, said she felt that the choice should be offered to voters as to some people it represents a “clean Brexit”
- but said an option to “remain as we are” must also be included.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2019 08:45

I mean WA+ PD providing PD has been agreed with the EU

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2019 09:28

Euronews totted it up:
NI has been without its Assembly for over 800 days Confused
Looking ever more like a colony