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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2019 10:10

I hope the events of this week give the ERG the kick up the backside over this that they need.

I doubt it will, but I live in hope. The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

I'll leave this here instead as a reminder of what choice Brexit was always going to come down to.

Happy Easter everyone.

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot
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24
lonelyplanetmum · 24/04/2019 13:39

As always Clavinova you skirt around the actual point.

Do you think NF is

  1. Highly Intelligent?
  2. Has intergrity?
  3. Is honest?
4.Would make a good PM
  1. Has US friends in high places who will put the UKs interests first.
Littlespaces · 24/04/2019 13:47

Oh for goodness sake - look up the definition of irony - none of the three candidates are wallflowers and they all like publicity -

Irony can be hard to spot on social media. However rudeness is much more obvious.

1tisILeClerc · 24/04/2019 13:47

6: A twat?

HesterThrale · 24/04/2019 13:51

Julie Girling, ex-Tory, now Change UK MEP has pulled out of being a candidate.

Shame, apparently she was good. Got suspended by the Tories in 2017.

myemail.constantcontact.com/Press-Statement---Julie-Girling-MEP-Statement-on-European-Elections.html?soid=1102824137130&aid=RRsuAdHa0ZU

DGRossetti · 24/04/2019 13:53

Seems POTUS is blaming Twitter for losing followers ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2019/04/24/trump_twitter/

President Trump sits down with Twitter boss for crunch talks: Why am I losing followers?

Littlespaces · 24/04/2019 13:54

Basically vote Green for Molly Cato Scott if you are in the South West.

I admire Julie Girling.

LonelyTiredandLow · 24/04/2019 13:58

@Clavinova so suppose Nige gets in. What do you expect him to achieve for us while he is 'back' that he so far hasn't managed to do in the years he has already been an MEP and failed to turn up?

You think he will help us get any trade deals? You think they will be nicer to us? You think he will be able to steam roll EU like May has tried to do an win? Confused

LonelyTiredandLow · 24/04/2019 14:00

*and not an
Because I know this one loves c&p Hmm

(I'd vote 6 1tisI {grin])

HesterThrale · 24/04/2019 14:04

Steve Bray has pulled out of being a candidate too, to reduce splitting the Remain vote.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/steve-bray-stands-down-as-eu-election-candidate-1-6012916

LonelyTiredandLow · 24/04/2019 14:06

As it seems to be taking time for even his admirers to find a use for Farage...

Did anyone else notice the rather all media encompassing advertisement for a dairy farmer for Sark the other day? That to me highlighted the reach of the Barclay Bros. That is also, if you ask me, how Fartage gets so much airtime other than the morbid fascination he seems to hold for people much like rubber necking

Icantreachthepretzels · 24/04/2019 14:13

I've just looked at the full list of announced MEPs - no official Farage's new UKIP lists yet (no SNP in Scotland Confused) There are a few list of Greens, but not in many regions. Is that because they're not standing in every region does anyone know?

And ... is anything happening today? at all?

lonelyplanetmum · 24/04/2019 14:17

Any more news of ERG having ego problems with each other? That always lifts my spirits.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/04/2019 14:18

Brexit party doesn't seem to have full "members", just "subscribers"
The give-me-your-money Farage party

BigChocFrenzy · 24/04/2019 14:20

DG That approval rating must be especially painful for May

  • imagine coming even below Grayling in populrity !
prettybird · 24/04/2019 14:27

Icantreachthepretzels - the SNP circulated their list of 6 MEP candidates at the weekend (The National had the list - the lovely Alyn Smith is on it Smile) and I believe that all that remains to be done is to confirm the order of the candidates.

Icantreachthepretzels · 24/04/2019 14:39

Good to know prettybird I wasn't doubting they were on top of the situation secretly hoping this is true of Farage's party ... just wondering why they weren't mentioned in the list of all announced MEPs. Plaid Cymru are on the Welsh list. But maybe if they haven't confirmed the order yet that is why they've been left off for now.

Frankiestein402 · 24/04/2019 15:07

Re Huawei - the cynic in me believes the US object because the kit won't have any NSA backdoors. As far as the UK is concerned we dont/can't make the kit so it's a choice of to whom we are opening our Comms/providing kill switch access - logically we should deploy a mixed estate so that we're not handing over control to a single state - hopefully that's what this announcement means.

CrunchyCarrot · 24/04/2019 15:10

is anything happening today? at all?

I think the 1922 committee is meeting, aren't they?

BigChocFrenzy · 24/04/2019 15:14

Choosing the favourite outcome for Brexit: the outcome depends on the method !

These tables are for voters, but the outcome would vary for MPs too

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2019/04/23/the-crazy-polling-of-soft-brexit

Method #1: Concordat (one-on-one contests)
where each option is compared to all the others

Soft Brexit wins
but Remain is a close 2nd

Method #2: Alternative Vote
where top choices are compared.
If one outcome gets a majority of first places, it wins outright.
But if it doesn’t, the outcome that gets the least number of first places is dropped.
Voters who preferred the dropped outcome then get their second preferences allocated to the other outcomes. This continues until one outcome has a majority.

Remain wins

  • and Soft Brexit is knocked out in the 1st round (!) because it is few people's first choice
Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot
Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot
DGRossetti · 24/04/2019 15:15

theecologist.org/2019/apr/24/brexit-and-transatlantic-trade

theecologist.org
Brexit and transatlantic trade
6-8 minutes

Brexit talks have stalled because Theresa May won’t abandon a toxic trade deal with Trump.

Theresa May hopes to get Brexit talks moving again this week, but faces an uphill struggle.

There’s little sign that the deadlock will be broken, even though many of us outside Westminster may be sick to the back teeth of backstops and pulling our hair out over Brexit extensions. It’s reasonable to ask: why?

This week Jeremy Corbyn gave his take on what, precisely, this is all about. In his words: “The government doesn’t appear to be shifting the red lines because they’ve got a big pressure in the Tory party that actually wants to turn this country into a deregulated, low-tax society which will do a deal with Trump.”

Toxic trade

For all the Brexit micro-positioning, Corbyn's point deserves to be taken seriously.

The hard-Brexit wing of the Conservative party have long seen "taking back control" as meaning nothing less than taking away hard-won protections such as the NHS and food safety standards, in order to grant even more control to big business.

Hard-Brexiters have also always been clear on the crowning glory of this frenzy of deregulation: a trade deal with Donald Trump.

Take trade secretary Liam Fox, whose hopes for a US-UK trade deal are at the heart of his long-term support for Brexit. Fox is so set on trading with Trump that the Trade Bill he is attempting to force through Parliament fails to give MPs any meaningful vote over future trade agreements.

Fox knows full well that a toxic trade deal with Trump would be nigh on impossible to force through Parliament. So his Trade Bill (which we’re fighting hard to reform) dodges this bullet by shifting power over future trade agreements to ministers, in effect writing himself a blank cheque to negotiate any deal he likes. Parliamentary sovereignty anyone?

Thatcherite project

Why, then, are Brexiteers like Fox so set on trading with Trump?

Former Conservative chancellor Nigel Lawson gave us a clue when, back in 2016, he declared that, free from the shackles of EU regulation, we could “finish the job that Margaret Thatcher started.”

No matter that de-industrialised and divided Brexit Britain is nothing other than a testimony to the failures of the Thatcherite project, Fox and his ilk remain committed to extreme free-market ideology and the powerful interests this serves.

While the role of the market within contemporary Britain is already less “invisible hand” and more clunking great boot, these economic extremists simply will not rest until our schools and health services have been completely privatised.

Until fossil fuel companies are free to extract and burn whatever they like. Until supermarkets are stacked with products farmed as intensively and toxically as big agribusiness want.

Until our rights at work are diminished to the extent that employers offering poverty pay demand. Until the NHS is stripped of any power to negotiate on the prices it pays to big pharma.

Negotiating objectives

Or, in other words, until our economic policy is as dominated by uncontrolled commercial interests as it is in the US.

This, after all, is what a US-UK trade deal would really be about: undoing the regulation that, for decades, has restricted the abilities of US multinationals to enforce their business models on our shores.

Don’t believe it? Just have a read of the US negotiating objectives for the deal, which include “reduce or eliminate barriers to US investment in all sectors in the UK” and “increase opportunities for US firms to sell US products and services to the UK”.

US agriculture firms, for instance, have long been frustrated by EU standards that kept their highly processed and chemically treated products off our shelves - products like chlorine-washed chicken andhormone-injected beef.

The British public do not want to touch this kind of produce, and for good reason. The risks for public health and our environment are far-reaching, from the failure of chlorine-washing to kill listeria and salmonella, through to compounding the crisis of antibiotic resistance through their usage on livestock.

Empire 2.0

Chlorinated chicken, though, is just the tip of the iceberg.

Because under a US-UK trade deal, if US food imports start to make us ill, our healthcare system will be less equipped to make us better.

American healthcare firms are eyeing up our NHS as a new source of profitable investment. US senators have already said they hope a future US-UK deal could open up the NHS – asked about a potential US-UK deal, Republican senator Todd Young said he was: “Always looking for opportunities to open up foreign markets”.

There is no question that this is an “America first” deal. The US’s negotiating objectives leave no doubt on this. Neither do the suite of US lobbyists invited to submit their priorities for the deal. And nor, of course, does Trump himself.

Giddy on his disquieting dream of Empire 2.0, Liam Fox has an inflated sense of the UK’s power in all this. The reality, though, is that Britain’s standing on the international stage has rarely been more shambolic. The US, meanwhile, boasts the most experience negotiating team in the world.

People power

With Brexit negotiations stalling, we’re being held to ransom by a cabal of market fundamentalists hell-bent on taking control away from ordinary people and handing this over to US-based multinationals.

Just as with Trump’s election in the US, Brexit shows what happens when toxic racism and anti-immigrant hysteria become intertwined with a toxic economic agenda designed to consolidate the wealth and power of the 1 percent against the 99 percent.

These are deeply disturbing times. But, just a few years ago, people power stopped the US-UK trade deal’s predecessor, TTIP, in its tracks.

If, together, we raise our voices loud enough once again, we can make sure that the hard-Brexit fantasy of trading with Trump remains just this: a fantasy.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/04/2019 15:17

If there are just 2 choices instead of several, this changes the result too, as obviously it brings a majority

With straight Remain vs Leave contests, the winner has been Remain in all polls since about late 2017

DGRossetti · 24/04/2019 15:20

Re Huawei - the cynic in me believes the US object because the kit won't have any NSA backdoors.

Funnily enough that's a far more acceptable way to sell the ban to the US public than the truth. Which is really that in it's fetishisation of profit over investment, US tech industry (at least they have one) is an empty shell which is a testament to 30 years of reducing costs by not hiring and training Americans.

In one sense, we could be witnessing the tech equivalent of the 1970s energy crisis when the Arab states suddenly realised they could charge double for oil, and the west would have to suck it up.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/04/2019 15:23

There was NO earlier US-UK trade deal proposed a few years ago:

Only the US-EU deal, TTIP - which the UK govt supported, but which other EU members vetoed

The Tories' "take back control" means big business taking back control from workers and elected governments
Continuing the rollback of the welfare state, NHS, workers' rights
and the increased transfer of wealth from the poor to the already very wealthy

BigChocFrenzy · 24/04/2019 15:26

Fox's US trade deal is just agreeing to everything the US wants,
especially its huge agribusiness and pharmaceutical lobbies

Great profits for those with large US investments
asset-stripping the Uk
shame about the ordinary Brit .....

BigChocFrenzy · 24/04/2019 15:28

NS: Scotland should get Indy2 vote by May 2021 if Brexit goes ahead

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