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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
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16
67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 07:16

Pmk

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 07:18

CERR@CER*_EU

Latest CER estimate:
the UK economy is 2.5 per cent smaller than it would be if Britain had voted remain.

The knock-on hit to the public finances is £19 billion per annum – or £360 million a week.

< That 19 bn is just tax - lost business investment is far higher >

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 07:20

Bollocks to Labour & their opposition to FOM, pandering to populism

Sam Coates Times@SamCoatesTimes

Sunday show highlights 4

  • Emily Thorberry on ‪*@JPonpolitics*‬
  • warns Labour hasn't to date supported Common Market 2.0 because it means keeping free movement
and the referendum was a rejection of that < Hmm >
Sostenueto · 01/04/2019 07:21

Well I managed to keep mothers day meal down so that's a positive! ( probably only one I get today).
Ready and waiting for votes this evening( slumps)Hmm

woman19 · 01/04/2019 07:24

It's difficult to spot satire these days lonely but I'm guessing that that was an April Fool's joke. Grin

The group is also considering a number of events to help with reunification of the country. One idea gaining traction is for a 12-hour live TV recreation of the popular show It’s a Knockout, which ran for 15 years on the BBC. It would feature combined teams of commentators and MPs based on remainers v leavers. “We’re looking at a more no-holds barred contest – let’s let off steam, let’s get this done,” said one source with knowledge of the talks

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 07:27

A free trampoline for everyone. And a cats doing cute things channel.
I think these would be great for a healing tsar. Even an April Fool's Day one.
And sunshine indoors on rainy days.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 07:27

Rogue state gonna rogue.

@sturdyAlex
Here is Bob Stewart, Conservative MP for Beckenham (which voted to Remain), telling a constituent not to worry, because once they vote May’s Withdrawal Agreement through, they’ll overturn it.

twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1112456571399954434

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2019 07:28

Yes the Guardian article is an April Fools but my friend was saying something similar on Saturday and he was serious!

Peregrina · 01/04/2019 07:29

The knock-on hit to the public finances is £19 billion per annum – or £360 million a week.

Yet on other threads we still have Leavers telling us that the economy hasn't taken a hit, that we haven't had job losses, that we ought to be worried about what the EU might be in 10 or 20 years time. I have been even more angry since last night to find out that the Government has already started trashing the GFA. If I feel like that, I would suspect many other Remain voters will, and you would hope that moderate Leavers at least feel a little disturbed, even if they are not yet prepared to admit they were mistaken in their vote.

Sorry, I just need to rant.

EweSurname · 01/04/2019 07:31

Steven Swinford
@Steven_Swinford
Pretty extraordinary intervention by Julian Smith, the Chief Whip, to start the week

He tells
@bbclaurak
that Government should have been ‘clearer’ in wake of snap election that failure to secure a majority ‘inevitably’ means there will be a ‘softer type of Brexit’

HazardGhost · 01/04/2019 07:37

Or risking no brexit at all.

Motheroffourdragons · 01/04/2019 07:37

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Peregrina · 01/04/2019 07:39

that Government should have been ‘clearer’ in wake of snap election that failure to secure a majority ‘inevitably’ means there will be a ‘softer type of Brexit’

Ed Vaizey, MP for Wantage, at his Count in 2017 said that Hard Brexit was dead, if this is the Snap election that is being talked about. They are beggars for finding things out, as my late DF would have said.

MarshaBradyo · 01/04/2019 07:40

Martha is annoying on R4, too early for shrill

ClashCityRocker · 01/04/2019 07:41

Pmk. Thanks red.

Shadycorner · 01/04/2019 07:44

Thank you Redtoothbrush!

Flowers > Sostenuto

Sorry to lower the tone but did anyone see 'Countryfile' last night? Excellent women farmers patently doing a great job...farming on collosal scale ...lovely pigs ... supply British supermarket but also export to EU, but one of them voted for Brexit because she thought "it would make us more patriotic". Confused. The other voted leave because she wanted buyers to get behind British products. Now both worried that they face competition from imports from countries with lower pig welfare standards. Duh.

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2019 07:45

uK economy already 2.5% smaller ...Yet on other threads we still have Leavers telling us that the economy hasn't taken a hit, that we haven't had job losses

As we are urging politicians to compromise I spent a little time over the weekend trying to go outside my comfort zone. Trying to see the other side of the argument. (I wonder how many Brexiteers people and politicians try to do this.)

I read this about the Farage march:

“There was a sprinkling of younger people, notably 28-year-old Reece...
We^ can provide for our own country, within our own country. We don’t need trade, it’s all delusion,^” he told HuffPost UK.
“We’ve got enough land to grow on, we’ve got enough land to live on, we don’t need no other country.
“We just won’t be able to get some luxuries, but we’ll have to build the country up and the companies, to make the luxuries.
“It will obviously take a while, but, like winning the first and second world war, that took time and effort.”

This is what my FIL thinks too.

How can you ever bridge a gap between two people one of whom believes international trade is not necessary?

Even Cuba has some limited international trade for goodness sake.

huff-post~Leave~marchers

OhYouBadBadKitten · 01/04/2019 07:46

Morning all.

Peregrina · 01/04/2019 07:50

Well, Reece didn't take part in any wars for sure, never mind win. Most people who did see active service in either War didn't talk about it, and certainly not boast.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 07:50

We’ve got enough land to grow on, we’ve got enough land to live on, we don’t need no other country

Were they Scottish?

(PS Scots have all the water too;, that's always a fun bone of contention, I understand Wink)

Holidayshopping · 01/04/2019 07:51

Another week of excitement ahead! Blush

MissMalice · 01/04/2019 07:51

I saw that Shady - I tuned in to Countryfile as I thought it would be a nice break from the chaos of Brexit. So frustrating to hear the farmers slowly realise that they may well have ruined their own businesses.

QueenMabby · 01/04/2019 07:56

PMK.

LonelyTiredandLow · 01/04/2019 07:59

I do think some leavers are starting to see that whatever they had envisaged happening post Brexit may not happen. Although they can't see it never would have, they are going to blame politicians. Now that we are already loosing more in tax alone than was on the side of the bus (and we haven't actually left yet) I suspect they may now start to see it was never going to be a grass roots operation and the more suspicious might twig this was just a way to continue austerity against them by the leading classes. They probably won't believe the tax avoidance because Mogg/Farage/Banks/Cummings are hero's and don't need looking into too deeply.

I really hope this changes at some point in the not so distant future. Although they probably will just say it's still project fear.

Just saw a worrying clip on Newsround where they explained voice recordings can be made that sound almost realistic (and if we can do it we know others can and probably a more advanced version exists). Just as the fake videos, you soon won't be able to trust your ears. What kind of world are we heading into? Sad

67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 08:00

I shall spend today doing yoga and ironing.

Not at the same time, obv.

That would be silly.