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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 31/03/2019 23:38

PMK

Had a nice day out for Mothers’ Day. Back to worrying about tomorrow now.

BoreOfWhabylon · 31/03/2019 23:41

PMK

tobee · 01/04/2019 00:02

Really appreciate this @RedToothBrush and your informative stuff up thread & throughout!

NoWordForFluffy · 01/04/2019 00:10

PMK.

Thanks for the new thread, Red.

IrenetheQuaint · 01/04/2019 00:15

Thanks Red Gin

RhubarbCrumbled · 01/04/2019 00:17

PMK

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 01/04/2019 00:36

Thanks red

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 00:44

Thanks for the summary, red.

JadziaSnax · 01/04/2019 00:47

Thanks Red. I've learned a lot from these threads.

HazardGhost · 01/04/2019 01:02

Ta red

Had an interesting wkend spent with moderate Leavers. Shifted some of my thoughts slightly and reaffirmed a lot of my views. I ended up feeling quite sad and struggling to see a way forward outside of brexit.

However it ends up there's a growing number of people that won't vote tory, labour, ukip, CUK, greens, lib dems. We talked about a lack of a credible party for non racist wc class voters. Labour have so fucked up. I hadn't realised how wide spread the voter turn off was and my guilt that I'm somehow letting the side down not wanting to vote for them eased!

The general census was that we're out the game and whatever happens with brexit almost doesn't matter (except a huge NOOO for no deal) because we're fucked anyway and people are going to be angry regardless.

Jolly times. We got very drunk.

(Oh and the trans issues are well and truly outside the MN bubble now I was surprised people knew about it.)

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 01:12

Thanks for yet another thread, red 💐

They must number in the hundreds - maybe we should have numbered them from the beginning

Westministenders Abbreviations:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eureferendumm2016/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation?msgid=84503730

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 01:18

If a few MPs read Westministenders OPs,
I hope they spread the word to their colleagues that every PD, even CM2.0, requires this WA too

Of course the EU don't trust us now, but even if they did, international treaties are always nailed down with binding legal text, not just a handshake

phpolly · 01/04/2019 04:24

.

mathanxiety · 01/04/2019 05:27

www.theirishworld.com/irish-citizens-uk-register-eu-citizens-lawyers-warn/

Legal experts worn that the Common Travel Area agreement is built on sand and bears no guarantees whatsoever as to rights of Irish people in the UK after Brexit.

The lesson of Windrush has not been lost and www.theirishworld.com/british-government-assures-rights-irish-citizens/ assurances of the British government on this matter are non-binding. In other words, hot air.

With the recent brass-necked stripping of NI Irish of their right to be Irish or British or both, with full rights within the UK no matter what the choice, despite the international agreement that established them (the GFA), registering as EU citizens (as this article advises) starts to look like a waste of time however.

If the British government can act in direct contradiction of one international agreement then it can potentially tear up all the rest too.

I am increasingly concerned about my relatives and my former classmates who have made homes and lives in England.

borntobequiet · 01/04/2019 05:37

Thanks Red.
lonely’s pass the parcel analogy is spot on.

wheresmymojo · 01/04/2019 05:48

PMK

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2019 05:51

Thank you Born as is often the case I'm awake too early as well.

I don't know what to feel. (Other than shame at this whole turmoil.)

On the one hand indicative votes finally restore Parliamentary involvement.

On the other hand the way MPs voting allegiances can shift in 24 hours surely undermines any majority that is reached.

How can we pitch the whole nation's fortunes on a decision that could genuinely be different if it occurred a couple of days earlier or later?

I guess unanimity and some kind of a consensual vision can grow ex post facto.

mathanxiety · 01/04/2019 05:58

WARN not worn Blush

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 06:17

Thank you, Red. Tick follows tock follows tick follows tock.

OublietteBravo · 01/04/2019 06:38

PMK

Flowerplower · 01/04/2019 06:47

Pmk. Thank you Red.

woman19 · 01/04/2019 06:50

Thank you red

Guardian April Fool Joke. For Fool Brittania.

^Proposal for 'healing tsar' to reunite Britain after Brexit
Group meeting in secret also considers ideas for ‘Festival of Britain’ and live TV spectacular^

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/apr/01/proposal-for-healing-tsar-to-reunite-britain-after-brexit

MissMalice · 01/04/2019 06:52

PMK

BercowsSilkTie · 01/04/2019 07:01

Morning all. Here we go again 😩 Question is: will today's votes actually mean anything or change anything?!

lonelyplanetmum · 01/04/2019 07:10

April fools-Proposal for 'healing tsar' to reunite Britain

A friend was saying over the weekend that we will have a truth and reconciliation commission.

It seemed absurd when he said it but then there has been wrongdoing by a government and that's what you do in the hope of resolving conflict left over from the past.

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