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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 22:57

TM and MP's are still putting millions of people through unnecessary stress.

People with mental health problems, isolated lonely people, sick people, disabled people and the list goes on.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 22:58

Littlespace Those leaders have moved their assets abroad and will move their arses with it, if things go pear-shaped

tobee · 01/04/2019 22:58

I worked, as a student, on the cloakroom at a well known London theatre in the ballet season Susan. The worst night was a special night for American Express platinum card holder. Wall to wall asshats jumping up on my counter to shout out to their mates. Still some nice bloke did take pity on me and give me a glass of his party's champagne! Funny what you remember.

Sostenueto · 01/04/2019 22:59

Shame about Boles he has worked so hard for a consensusSad. How on earth can you get ANY decisions when MPs are whipped, or abstain.Angry Brexit cannot be solved whilst party politics is top of the agenda or self interests.
If TM gets her shit of a deal through I will never ever vote again.Angry
The Tories will NOT compromise. TM will not compromise. The Lib Dems are twats. The DUP are even bigger twats. I am so done with it all!Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 01/04/2019 22:59

The rich will be fine after No Deal
So that's all the Leave leaders

Not most of the Leave voters though
or most of the Remain voters

mrslaughan · 01/04/2019 23:00

Placemarking...

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 23:00

To be fair, it seems that brexiteers are in a difficult position when it comes to compromise. They know the middle ground (soft Brexit) is worse than staying in. So they cannot really compromise - they have to go full tilt for no deal. But it makes them look bloody unreasonable when they refuse to compromise.

This is what happens when you ask a binary question where the status quo is the best on offer. If people choose change you're left having to deliver crap change - knowing people's lives will be worse because of it. How the fuck do you do that if you're not a psychopath? But if you lack the courage or will to tell them the wrong answer to a bad question ... you end up with tonight.

MarshaBradyo · 01/04/2019 23:01

No where near most of the Leave voters. Odd how the elite lead the turkeys to their Christmas lunch

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 23:01

tell them they gave the wrong answer to a bad question - sorry.

Random18 · 01/04/2019 23:01

If it wasn’t for the issues with medication and the scary consequences I would really say FUCK IT let’s go for no deal.

My family are relatively well insulated. We have savings behind us, a bit of a stockpile and we could survive the worst.

And let those who want this reap what they sow.

In am just so fed up with the lot of them and especially my spineless mp who yet again voted against everything. Yet supposedly he does not want no deal.

Bar steward is being too kind

Quintella · 01/04/2019 23:02

Mark Francois is such an oik.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 23:02

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3548842-Westminstenders-For-Whom-the-Bell-Tolls?watched=1
New thread.

It's grim.

Need to top up the stockpile.

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HazardGhost · 01/04/2019 23:03

I understand the hard-core PVers abstaining. Unless the CU is voted on with a PV attached why would they go for it? Because compromise? The CU is still kinda shit though isn't it? And if I remember this right the only tolerable leave was Norway+ and Norway has to allow us in the gang don't they? Which they've said no to if I remember correctly...because we've behaved like dicks and no one wants to play with us now.

Lisette1940 · 01/04/2019 23:03

It's not untrue either Red. Time will tell!

cherin · 01/04/2019 23:04

A GE would be a disaster for me. People have totally lost trust in politics and politicians of most sides. As other said, there is no manifesto to speak of, for neither party, the only thing they can try to cobble up is a proposal for Brexit but Tory is split is labour is lead by a moron who’s as stubborn as TM in going his own misterious way (leading to Caracas, me think)
And elections cost money, and time, and the EU has no patience nor faith so they’d be the first one to probably say “never mind, don’t even try now”. Grrrrrrrr

Violetparis · 01/04/2019 23:04

The customs deal or similar is better than no deal which is where I think we may be heading.

Lonelycrab · 01/04/2019 23:06

Happy fucking April fools day.

This country has become the joke that doesn’t stop giving 😐

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 23:06

Tim farron @timfarron
Right, chin up everybody! The government have wasted the 33 months since the referendum. By contrast, we have had just one week so far to seek compromise, and we've made real progress. Stubborn extremists on the Tory benches cannot win if we work together. We keep going.

Honestly. I don't think I can really post how this tweet makes me feel.

It's too chipper, flippant and unrealistic.

You have three days left. Tops.

OP posts:
twattymctwatterson · 01/04/2019 23:08

I'm off tomorrow and I've had quite a few drinks. Never used to drink alone but I think Brexit is turning me into a lush

Icantreachthepretzels · 01/04/2019 23:08

Well - if we can get another round of indicative votes before TM declares an election or presents mV4 with a gun to their heads - then maybe Alistair Campbell will be right and a CU+PV will be voted on, which if no one who voted for the CU switches - and the SNP, Libdem and tiggers vote for it - should easily get over the line.
Then there is the simple problem of making TM implement it. Maybe this isn't the end - maybe they are just manoeuvring to get something everyone in opposition can vote for... but they're still only the opposition.
This time tomorrow she might have dissolved parliament - and tonight was their last chance to do anything meaningful. And they blew it.

StripeyMonkey1 · 01/04/2019 23:11

I haven't posted for a while but I have been following Westminstenders and want to say thank you to regular posters for keeping us all up to date.

I understand that one feature of the Customs Union proposal put forward by Ken Clarke, is that it requires amendment to both the WA and the PD and therefore would need an extension. This would allow for the possibility for it to be combined with a new referendum.

Nick Boles said in the Commons earlier that Common Market 2.0 only requires an amendment to the PD and therefore could pass with the existing WA. There would then be no time for a new referendum.

I think this explains some of the voting patterns.

The linking of the Common Market 2.0 proposal to just an amendment of the PD by Boles should have appealed to the Conservatives, as it could be supported alongside voting for the WA. It is easy to see why he is most enraged with the Conservatives he was trying to court by doing this, when they failed to back him.

Those who support a Peoples Vote did not want to take the risk of backing Common Market 2.0.

Sostenueto · 01/04/2019 23:13

If you want to know where all the Tories were they were in the 1922 committee rooms having a party! This is TRUE. When sky TV were doing their yapping they said they were in there. You could see them drinking and chatting in big glass building beside HoC. Having a party is so much more important than the FUCKING COUNTRY!!!!!AngryAngryAngry

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 01/04/2019 23:15

sostenueto

Seriously?

horseshit · 01/04/2019 23:18

Having a party because they know no deal is the default and May doesn’t have the backbone to revoke or call a PV, probably. They know all they have to do is sit tight and wait. It’s despicable.

venusandmars · 01/04/2019 23:19

It is such a fucking mess of party politics and principled voting.

It would be interesting if there were three simultaneous indicative votes - one which was along party or policy lines (public), a private one which was in line with what the MP thought would best represent their constituents ( so a 'leave' constituency might accept a range of leave options, a 'remain constituency might accept a revoke option or maybe a very, very soft Brexit) and a private and personal one which was about the principles of the individual, and possibly their sensible head that would say that the whole thing is nuts!!