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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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Thread gallery
16
DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 10:24

I wonder if the increased stop and search powers announced yesterday were actually a last minute attempt to find a solution for Brexit ? I can imagine that in a Brixton Street:

Police officer: Excuse me sir. Under section of , I have reason to believe you are carrying a solution to all the nations woes and therefore have the power to require you to submit to a search

Suspect: It weren't me guv - blame society !

Police Officer: Oh we've had our eyes on society for quite a while. Believe me, they'll be hauled in for questioning too ....

(can someone else stitch this to a Constable Savage skit ?)
(no - Ed.)

MissMalice · 01/04/2019 10:25

she said she would happily eat bread and water for the rest of her life!

For what? What is the amazing benefit that means they would be happy to just have bread and water?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 10:26

I don’t understand this - as Irish Citizenship(and therefore EU Cutizenship) is granted by Ireland so how can the UK strip it? My understanding was it was the UK likely planning to change or end the CTA that was the issue?

twitter.com/EmmandJDeSouza/status/1112320347515375616
See thread

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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 10:28

The problem - even now - with whinging Leavers is that they still can't backtrack two years and show where they could have realistically done things different.

Bakers' strop is simply an admission that Leave could never have delivered on it's promises. It won't change Brexiteer views - only God can do that. But hopefully this ever-so-slightly-backpedalling sort of vibe will cause softer Leavers to realise they were fooled. And softer remainers that their spidey senses were correct.

Ultimately, the UKs legacy to the world could be Brexit: a clear warning to other countries of how not to manage political issues by involving the country.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 10:28

For what? What is the amazing benefit that means they would be happy to just have bread and water?

Freedom from the oppressor. I know, I know. Complete bullshit. Some of them still think they are in a war.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 10:31

Dom Walsh @DomWalsh13
Second round of indicative votes is today.

Here's a quick thread on what each motion says, and how the options are different - if at all - to what MPs voted on last week

First point to note is that there are only 8 motions which have been tabled this time. Last time there were 16 and the Speaker selected 8 - so unless he selects all 8, MPs will likely have fewer options to choose from compared to last time

MOTION A - unilateral exit from the backstop (Baron) - Signed by Tory Brexiteers. NB majority of these voted against deal 1st time, but are largely voting for it now - Identical to a motion tabled last time - Speaker didn't select it then - In practice, this is a No Deal motion

MOTION B - No Deal in the absence of a Withdrawal Agreement (Baron) - Essentially same group of MPs as above - NOT the same as the No Deal motion MPs voted on last week, as it specifies "in the absence of a Withdrawal Agreement". Attempt to get broader support?

MOTION C - Customs Union (Clarke) - Same as Customs Union motion last week - which had the narrowest margin of defeat (losing by 8 votes) - Cross-party support: pro-deal Tory Remainers, Labour soft Brexiters, some MPs who back 2nd referendum - and interestingly, Frank Field

MOTION D - Common Market 2.0 (Boles) - Has been reworked, reportedly in an attempt to get buy-in from the DUP. Paragraph 1ii) is key - Joint Instrument which confirms CM2 would supersede backstop 👀 - 🚨🦄🚨 - "a say in EU trade deals" - new addition to get Labour support?

MOTION E - Confirmatory Public Vote (Kyle-Wilson) - Same as Beckett motion last week - only difference is it's now actually in the names of the two Labour MPs whose brainchild it is (Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson)

MOTION F - Public vote to prevent No Deal (Jones) - Another 2nd referendum motion and with much less support, so very unlikely to be selected - doubt this will be very significant. Next.

MOTION G - Parliamentary Supremacy (Cherry) More comprehensive version of last week's "revoke to avoid No Deal": - If No Deal looming with 2 days to go, Government must seek extension - If EU refuses to have extension, House to vote on No Deal vs revoke - Post-revocation plans

MOTION H - EFTA and EEA (Eustice) Slightly different to the EFTA/EEA motion from last week (both attached) - Includes a short further extension to Article 50 to negotiate EFTA - instead of transition? - More anti-No Deal than before and doesn't explicitly rule out customs union

So how do today's motions compare to last week's 8 options? - 2 exactly the same (Customs Union, Kyle-Wilson) - 4 reworked (Common Market 2, EEA, revoke, No Deal) - 1 new (the other 2nd ref one) - 1 same as one not selected last week (unilateral exit)

Which means there are two options which MPs voted on last week, which they won't vote on this week: - The Malthouse Compromise plan B option (a No Deal transition - aka 🦄) - 🚨 Labour's "alternative plan" isn't there. Will they whip for Common Market 2 and Kyle Wilson instead?

Things to watch out for today: - Will Cabinet ministers get to vote? Last time they weren't allowed to, which meant 28 missing votes on everything - Will 20-30 other Tories continue to boycott? - Will the DUP, SNP and Labour vote for Common Market 2 this time?

PS - important to note that the Business motion which sets the procedure for indicative votes (same as last time) also reserves another day for a THIRD round of indicative votes - this coming Wednesday. End of thread (for now)

twitter.com/DomWalsh13/status/1112630461061316608
Full thread here with screenshots of the amendments and signatories

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RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 10:35

IMPORTANT THREAD

Phil Syrpis @syrpis
Huge pressure on the indicative votes process - which is to move to its second phase on Monday. The challenges for MPs are huge - as are the potential rewards. Thread. 1/

It seems not yet to have dawned on many commentators that the various propositions are not alternatives; but that instead that they fall into 3 categories. Decisions in each of the categories must be made. 2/

First, substance. What sort of deal do MPs support. Is it a CU, Common Market 2.0, or what? Are they content to see these in the PD, or do they aspire to change the WA? 3/

Second, process. Is a Parliamentary majority enough, or is more (eg a ratification referendum) needed to give one of these last-minute, poorly understood, options some legitimacy? 4/

And third, what happens if the chosen plan fails (either in Parliament, or to be actioned by the Govt, or to be agreed with the EU)? Is it no deal, or instead, no Brexit? 5/

The timescale is ridiculously tight. Decisions have to made by (at the latest) Wednesday. The Govt will then respond. And, if the chosen option (as seems very likely) needs a long extension, a case must be made for that before April 12. 6/

The hurdles which any successful propositions will face are huge; and there is scope for them to founder either in the face of Govt opposition, or if the Govt fails to make a convincing enough case to the EU. 7/

The necessary first step is to coalesce around propositions which command majority support. If questions of substance and process are confused (as they have been to date) it will be harder to find a path forward. 8/

For example, Common Market 2.0 and the PV are not rivals. The PV (as in the Beckett proposition) can be bolted on to any substantive proposition which wins majority support. So too can a revoke default (hinted at in the Cherry proposition). 9/

What we need are a set of agreements; on substance, process and the defaults, which can - by Wednesday - be crafted into a plan for the Govt to consider. It is a very tall order. Approached well, it is just about possible. Approached badly, there's no chance. 10/10

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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 10:37

What we need are a set of agreements; on substance, process and the defaults, which can - by Wednesday - be crafted into a plan for the Govt to consider. It is a very tall order. Approached well, it is just about possible. Approached badly, there's no chance.

So, that's no chance then.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 10:37

They seem to approach everything badly.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 10:42

Jonathan Lis @jonlis1
There are two really important points which keep getting missed.

1) EU doesn’t care if we leave the customs union per se. Some French farmers would love EU to impose tariffs on UK produce. What EU does care about is an open border in Ireland. Which is why...

2) Customs-union backstop was for NI only. UK government insisted on its application in GB too to appease DUP. So pro-Brexit supporters of May’s deal need to accept that an indefinite customs union is UK government policy, even if government will never have the guts to admit it.

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bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 10:42

It is for Ireland to determine its citizenship rules. Not the UK.
To coin a phrase "end of".

pepinana · 01/04/2019 10:43

What do we think will happen today?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 10:44

The point that Jonathan Lis makes just shows the failure of the media to pick up on this crucial point and not challenge either the Government nor the ERG types on this.

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ContinuityError · 01/04/2019 10:46

Thanks RTB for the twitter link.

My reading is that it’s not stripping NI born Irish citizens of EU citizenship but refusing to recognise them as Irish citizens with EU citizenship rights.

Which is slightly different but equally disgusting.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 10:47

Since I last asked about them, I've still read nothing about the DUP - until the "will oppose deal 1,000 times" headline on state central.

So what's going on ? Are they full Remainers now ? We know they've been against the WA etc. But what are they for (yes, that is an ambiguous question Grin )

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 10:50

It is for Ireland to determine its citizenship rules. Not the UK.

...

My reading is that it’s not stripping NI born Irish citizens of EU citizenship but refusing to recognise them as Irish citizens with EU citizenship rights.

I said I could see a future UK government refusing to acknowledge dual/EU citizenship out of spite. And so it starts.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 01/04/2019 10:50

PMK

TheABC · 01/04/2019 10:51

Yes, it's being approached badly with typical game playing on both sides. But (I hope), all politicians of all stripes realise that the public will blame them for whatever outcome happens and there is no majority appetite for No-Deal chaos. It's also dawning on them that they need to make some choices quickly.

Today should tell us what the alternative is. Thank fuck someone is thinking and the indicative votes are corralling them towards that choice.

Petition being debated at 4:30pm.

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 10:51

Interesting that they think they can refuse to recognise them.
It's easy, if you are a citizen you are a citizen. If you want to prove it for ease you get a passport.
I am an Irish citizen courtesy of Ireland's rule that a child of an Irish born citizen is an Irish citizen. I am entitled to an Irish passport provided I supply the Irish passport authorities with the necessary paperwork and evidence.
Fail to see how anyone other than Ireland can change that and stop me being an Irish citizen.

BiglyBadgers · 01/04/2019 10:52

That Phil Syrpis thread is a great summary. Very helpful.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 10:52

Fail to see how anyone other than Ireland can change that and stop me being an Irish citizen.

Well first off, what if you are not in Ireland ?

bellinisurge · 01/04/2019 10:54

But that's what the Irish citizenship rules say. It doesn't matter if I was born in Bhutan if I was born of an Irish born parent.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 10:56

I wonder, when they make the final choice, if anyone in Government will have the guts to level with the British Public that it is worse than the status quo?

PickleSarnie · 01/04/2019 10:57

Pmk

TheABC · 01/04/2019 10:58

I am a little bit in love with @DGRossetti's posts today.

The only ray of light in this whole process (for me) has been the high-quality Mumsnet posts on these threads. I am currently fantasizing about Westminster meetup to celebrate the A50 revocation (!) and actually meeting some of you in the flesh.