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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 22:39

PMK!

Calyx72 · 31/03/2019 22:46

Thanks Red and everyone for keeping us up to the minute Thanks

titchy · 31/03/2019 22:50

Excuse ignorance - only followed the last few of red's (brilliant!) threads, but... PMK? Placemark?

Icantreachthepretzels · 31/03/2019 22:52

yes
thanks Red

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 31/03/2019 22:54

PMK

MV4 Hmm she’s going to run out of ways to tweak her damned WA soon.

I wonder if May is secretly hoping for F to gain a majority (PV if necessary to prevent no deal). Everything else looks like it will split the Tories in two - maybe a PV splits them in two as well though.

titchy · 31/03/2019 22:54

Phew! So why is it only these threads people use pmk? I don't see it on other threads, just the annoying full stop.

lonelyplanetmum · 31/03/2019 22:57

Red you are amazing.

Yes PMK stands for Pla(i)ce Mat King which is place marking and any number of variations on that theme often involving kittens, cats or the occasional squirrel.

There's an abbreviations thread.

Sostenueto · 31/03/2019 22:58

Pmk and thanks red for thread and great intro!

I said many many threads ago that as soon as the result of the referendum was announced a National Government should have been formed as if we were in a state of war. It is too big an issue for one minority party to do on its own. This was the only logical thing to do to set aside party politics and concentrate on getting the best deal for the whole of the UK.
IMHO I believe it is party politics that is stopping a compromise being reached. I see no point in indicative votes whilst the government repeatedly whip against any option other than their own. Until party politics are eradicated from the process there will never be a solution. And I can't see that happening with the present HoC. Also, the lack of true states people and people of true principles who put the country first before anything else contributes to the impasse we are in.
But in a world where self comes first seems to be the norm in almost every aspect of society, how can anything ever be solved or improve for the better?Sad

QueenOfThorns · 31/03/2019 22:58

PMK. Looking forward to another exciting day in Westminster Confused

lonelyplanetmum · 31/03/2019 23:00

Abbreviations

Westministenders Abbreviation http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eureferendumm2016/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation

JustAnotherPoster00 · 31/03/2019 23:00

PMK

Icantreachthepretzels · 31/03/2019 23:01

Can I make a wish for the indicative votes tomorrow? Not a prediction - I have no idea - but a wish.
Star I wish that Clarke's customs union and Boles Common Market 2.0 get a majority this time. I also wish that the Kyle/ Beckett P.V motion gets a majority. I wish that they then manage to hammer out a P.D they can all live with - which the EU will grant, and that they decide to hold EU elections to allow for us to hold a P.V on W.A/ new P.D vs remain* I also hope Cherry's revoke article 50 in event of no deal gets a majority - as that would really take the heat off Star

*If TM is feeling like a glutton for punishment she can run her w.a/p.d vs the one the commons came up with and get it roundly trounced - as only the ERG would vote for it (the irony) The winner of this vote would be the one that then got put on the ballot.

MayhemandMadness01 · 31/03/2019 23:04

Pmk

Lisette1940 · 31/03/2019 23:09

Pmk

lonelyplanetmum · 31/03/2019 23:11

Probably a naive point but one that bothers me.

I'm glad the indicative votes are happening. At least it's progress and wrests control from May's inner circle and hopefully the ERG. Although I still think the MV is edging towards victory and we need a WA for most of the other compromise solutions anyway.

However partly due to whipping, abstaining, party politics, own agendas and leadership ambitions we have seen that indicative votes and proper votes can switch from week to week or day to day.

So when we if do get a majority for something then it must lack gravitas? If the voting game continued for another week after s majority then something else could get a majority?

It's like a game of pass the parcel but the winner is quite random. If the music continued for another 5 minutes the winner would change.

It's almost as if the timing (of when the music stops) dictates the outcome rather than the substantive merits of any contender iyswim.

MarshaBradyo · 31/03/2019 23:12

Pmk another big day tomorrow

Back into the fray. I wonder if May has Sunday night blues

Peregrina · 31/03/2019 23:14

looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party.

Bring this on! I wonder what sort of Tory May really is? Is she really a one nation Tory, admittedly with a complete blind spot about immigration, or is she really a closet ERGer?

I have acted as a teller in various elections, and had no problems discussing issues with Tory opposite numbers, but I could not help but think that they just didn't realise how their party had been highjacked by the extreme right. We need a much more moderate right wing viewpoint.

prettybird · 31/03/2019 23:14

A not so elegant Wink regal positioning from our gone but not forgotten old boy cat. Grin

Going to try not to be so side tracked by the mesmerising Brexit shenanigans this week as dh and I really should be getting on with some work but I know already I'll be sucked in HmmBlush

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
ShpliffenShploffen · 31/03/2019 23:20

.

Peregrina · 31/03/2019 23:21

I have wasted hours today on MN threads.....

nuttynutjob · 31/03/2019 23:23

PMK and Happy April Fools' Day

Hope our MPs have finished their tutorials otherwise, it's a fail

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
Loletta · 31/03/2019 23:29

Another big day tomorrow. Let's hope HoC agree on something. Meanwhile Nick Boles is clearly quite pissed off Common Market 2.0 is being whipped against and says he might vote against MV4

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
LonelyTiredandLow · 31/03/2019 23:31

Yes @lonely, you can't help but wonder what could have been if we'd had indicative votes to begin.

@mathanxiety yes to your post on the last thread. He stands out as singularly 'obvious' in my group of leavers. He posts emotionally and without any apparent thought. Very easy to manipulate and hard of thinking but seen as a "genuinely nice guy" by people who just want a smile and chat about football. It leads me back to the X Factor culture where you are fake and can't have much going on upstairs or you'd be hounded by the tabloids for your 'views'.

I remember going over the EU disparities in rights at the start. I forget the general public haven't had this pointed out yet. Dissolving of project fear? Of course not, just another way us plucky Brits will end up getting one over on the pesky EU Sad

SOS - hope you kept the food down Smile

prettybird · 31/03/2019 23:32

Maybe 2nd Hmm time round, the MPs can get round to actually voting according up their preferences and not according to what they think their whip wants (whether or not they are actually whipped Hmm).

But I think I am guilty of unicornism BlushSad: the culture of Yes/No confrontation politics runs too deep SadAngry

hayf · 31/03/2019 23:33

PMK