How are those Leave street parties going tonight?

[Bearbehind]

So how are the celebrating going?

Didn’t exactly go to plan did it?

Has it started to sink in what a fucking mess this all is?

Just intervening to support the contradictions of inaccurate rhetoric on this thread. I do find it odd that posters (and indeed the prime minister) reinforce Farage type rhetoric.

All that stuff about lost control of laws is false. When this has been pointed out, I find it troubling that posters and especially politicians still repeat it ?

* The true position is as Bertrand said We made most of our own laws anyway*.

We really did.

We had control of all our own legislation.Germany has control of its legislation. Belgium sets Belgian laws. Italy sets Italian laws and so on. The legislative task is too big and diverse for matters to ever be controlled centrally. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

The reality is we.jointly. Controlled. a. few. things. related. to. trade.

The only things we delegated to ourselves (acting jointly as part the EU) were trade related spin offs. Yes we agreed to jointly operate some rules regarding food, agriculture, environment etc . This was in return for vastly beneficial trade.There is some beneficial linked stuff about all countries having minimum workers' rights and treating people equally.

The U.K. govt retained complete autonomy over the vast majority of matters.

UK Subject areas

We controlled the following: administrative and public law, banking and finance, commercial law, constitutional law,Construction law, contract law ,corporation law ,some Employment law ,Energy and resources law, Family law including marriage, divorce, adoption, financial laws,Film and entertainment law, Insolvency litigation, banking and debt recovery issues ,Law of succession, wills and estates, Law of torts , compensation for wrongful acts e.g. negligence, nuisance, defamation, trespass ,personal injury and medical negligence law ,Property law, Sports law and most Taxation -income tax, inheritance tax etc. We manage domestic violence guardianship ,emergency protection, divorce property, spousal maintenance, adoption, mental capacity, probate, health, elderly care,benefits,housing ,pensions, education, policing, crime, defence , fiscal policy etc.etc

Voting stance

Turning to the limited joint decisions about agriculture, environment etc the British government only voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999. See full fact and the LSE.EU voting records show that the British government only voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

Sorry bold fail

I understand that the little brexit party in Westminster on Friday was attended by some 'interesting' political groups.

They apparently used the pavements as public toilets. (not jealous)

They also attacked the media, police and then beat up each other.

Seems like an apt metaphor for the whole brexit disaster really.

Aah copper sulphate the ECJ that we have had cases referred to 83 times in 15 years and we win a quarter. And those that we don’t tend to be our failure to implement environmental directives.

Next thing you will be telling me at least we want be having to suffer the human rights bit (except of course that is something separate)

The government is clearly not capable because not only is the vast majority want to leave a vast overstatement but leavers are split as to the reasons why

So let me ask you exactly what do you think no deal means

They apparently used the pavements as public toilets.

Disgusting, but we have already seen one Leaver on these threads use this sort of behaviour from other Nationalities as to why we must leave the EU.

lonelyplanetmum

Turning to the limited joint decisions about agriculture, environment etc the British government only voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999.See full fact and the LSE.

Just checked full fact;
fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

The UK has been in a losing minority more often over the past few years.

Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix shows that between 2009 and 2015 the UK voted against the majority 12.3% of the time, compared to 2.6% of the time between 2004 and 2009.

That made it the country most likely to be on the losing side during the later period—the closest competitors were Germany and Austria, which were on the losing side 5.4% of the time.

{Yes, Coppersulphate . Those Remainer bastards in the DUP and ERG thwarting every attempt by the government}

Is this the government that can't navigate itself out from under a blanket, the one that in 11 days time will have to start serious trade talks with China, Russia and the USA, having already proven it can't manage to decide what the heck it wants, let alone how to get it?
If leaving were such a brilliant idea how come there isn't 99% support for it in the HoC and HoL?

Clavinova - but even your figures show that when we have had a rabidly anti- EU party in charge, we still didn't vote against the majority in 87.7% times. As the link says: This doesn’t tell us about how important the decisions were, though. The UK might have been on the winning side on all the issues it really cared about.

This doesn't quite fit in with the Leavers screaming hab-dabs about not being able to make our own laws.

This doesn’t tell us about how important the decisions were, though.

Some important decisions about funding are in the list - e,g. the EU asking for billions of extra top-up funds (on top of our budget contributions) - for projects the UK government didn't want to pay for - plus increased salaries/allowances/pensions for EU Commission staff.

Would that be the 3.7 % increase as opposed to the 11% rise given to UK MPs in the middle of austerity? of which no one in the UK could even attempt to challenge!

I ve been off work for several months with a broken hip, i still got holiday as a result of ECJ judgements and can carry it over into the following year, i also benefit from the WTD which gives an 11hr break in any 24hr period (still means a 13hr day) and a 2 day break in any 14 days.... these are all things that many brexitiers and employers want to be rid off.... but benefit the common worker.... even with these fairly basic rights, the UK has opt outs for many professions and has short term exceptions if workload suddenly rises ie working day can increase to 15hrs! plenty enough for anyone surely.

Brexit means we may will lose all this, a no deal brexit means we will.

Copper have you really not moved on from trotting out the same lines

I think no deal will be good because it will mean we will be free of the ECJ
We will no longer have to pay vast sums into the EU.
We will be able to make our own trade deals.

Just taking the last one, in 3 years have you though of a single country we couldn’t trade with before that we will be able to and will want to?

And also will it be a better trade deal -because I am not sure that they will be. We will be seen (if under no deal) as a easy target like a fish floundering on the beach without water

I’m glad Leavers on here are fact checking. It's great- as they will know that the latest CER estimate is that the UK economy is already 2.5 per cent smaller than it would be if Britain had voted remain ( which we didn't).

The knock-on hit to the public finances for the cost of Brexit is £19 billion per annum – or £360 million a week.

By contrast EU membership cost was less at 0.7% of GDP. BUT the difference is that In return for the membership fee, we got something in return .We got unrestricted access to a market on our doorstep worth $18.8 trillion of 500 million consumers.

I'm still not sure what we are getting in return for Brexit I think that for some it just feels better?

Smaller economy, poorer nhs/education/roads/tax cuts for the wealthy etc etc are all worth it, in 50 years time, you'll be thanking us!

Yes that is exactly the problem there are many things wrong with the EU, and it certainly is far beyond its mandate of what it was. There are many good solid reasons to put a leave case forward.

But then it all comes unstuck because
(a) there are no good ways to properly leave that solve all of the reasons for leaving (customs union for example yes we leave but it doesnt actually solve any of the problems)

(b) Leaving actually causes far more problems than it solves (if it really solves any of them) and puts us in a far worse position

And that it why remainers are so angry at the whole process because (a) and (b) were never talked about in the referendum process at all

The mandate of 40+ years ago did not factor in the vast world changes such as the break up of the USSR, the fall of the Berlin wall and German reunification or the Belfast Agreement, let alone the massive changes seen in China.
All of us that are over 40 are rather different to how we were then too.

I would vote to have the body I had 40 years ago, but have to accept that it won't happen.

Me too 1tis, or preferably in my case the body of 50 years ago.....

Copper have you really not moved on from trotting out the same lines

The same could be said for you, Bear.

And why is Bear wrong to hold their position? Unlike Copper , Bear, isn't lobbying for the wilful destruction of the UK economy.

Nothing wrong with bear holding his/her position but he/she has accused another poster of repeating themselves which is something he/she has done frequently since the referendum.

Reiterating a point is not the same as droning out nonsense like "No Deal will be fiiiiiine".

Thanks bellini

It’s wasted on dapple and many others though.

It seems they genuinely think there is absolutely no need to dig below a headline comment and they can just repeat it and it will suddenly make Brexit work.

I don’t deny I’ve repeated the same things - largely questions about how these headline comments will actually affect anything!

Still waiting for answers though.

And it’s hystreaical that dapple mentions raising the same point when she has a diary reminder to bring up a point I made about voters understanding at regular intervals because she’s weirdly obsessed with it.

And also refuses to answer the question I ask every time she does so.

^^ hysterical