How are those Leave street parties going tonight?

[Bearbehind]

So how are the celebrating going?

Didn’t exactly go to plan did it?

Has it started to sink in what a fucking mess this all is?

Bear you've Been obsessed with plans as well for two years.

Before momentus events it's hard to plan.

The revolutionary s before any revolution Couldn't have exact, presise plans.

How can we formulate proper plans with govern ment as it Is.

Leavers in charge, visionaries.... cross party talks.... all on same page...we would be in different position.
Positive people who believe in brexit.

Bear.. half of parliament is as pessimistic as you!! How can leavers do anything it's gridlock?!!

born if I haven’t comprehended things it’s because they didn’t make sense to me.

You know as well as I do that there have never been reasons to leave which stack up against the repercussions - that’s exactly why we are in this position. There is no way of leaving which doesn’t irreparably damage the country whilst TMs red line are in place.

The question is - now what?

And I’d hoped the fact that the original leaving date has now passed might have made people think a bit more about the reality of the situation but it seems not.

Parliament won’t allow no deal so unless TM grinds enough people down, and is allowed MV4, the only options are revoke or a massively long extension.

The last 2 options require us to hold European elections, which will stir up merry Hell with the far right.

If we have to go through that anyway, why not just revoke and get on with dealing with the real reasons why people voted Leave, which had nothing to do with the EU.

Everybody should be angry - we are in this mess because of the incompetence of our last 3 Governments in mishandling this from the start. The House of Commons probably accurately reflects proportionally the UK (not country wide as we are 4 of them a huge part of the issue) views with slightly more leavers than remainers but those leavers broken up into hardliners and those who want a soft brexit. Those on the right/those on the left

The Scottish and Northern Irish should be furious that it’s constantly said that the people/country have spoken. Well yes except in their cases it was to remain. The country idea is England which isn’t the only one leaving (and if it was it would be so much easier).

Now rather than actually come up with a plan people seem to want no deal rather than the status quo even though very few know what that means apart from it somehow gives us more control and sovereignty.

Yes to the incompetent arseholes whose sheer arrogance and incompetence caused this in the first place.

quartz I agree - and as I've said politics isn't my subject and I'm not qualified enough to put forward suggestions or engage in a deep debate. My issue is with people's attitudes.

Bear the leave voters I know are happy to qualify their decisions and reasons. They are well informed, educated people. I haven't come across any leave voter who says they would be celebrating or throwing a party. This is serious business with serious consequences. I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by a mix of leave and remain voters. As a remain voter I have been utterly shocked at the vitriol aimed at those who voted leave.

An example in point. My DH voted leave. He's wanted out of the EU since he became interested in politics and economics over 30 years ago. He's an educated, well respected academic who was happy to make it clear where he stood in the debate. He has never mentioned immigration, 'getting our country back' or blue passports. He has spoken about his political and economic reasons for voting leave.
Yet he has been called racist, a bigot, stupid, he's had people threaten to kill him, rape his wife , get him sacked ( because apparently all academics must vote remain if they're educating the future 🙄).... All because he voted leave.

I have not seen the same amount of hate and judgement aimed at remain voters.

You might think your little ' eye roll' is harmless but it forms part of a narrative which is damaging to society and politics. .....
We support democracy....but only if you vote our way.Don't vote our way then you must be stupid, racist, a bigot etc etc..... because we are superior and clearly know best.

It's disgusting.

No constanz what is ‘disgusting’ is you tarring me with the same brush as people who’ve threaten to kill or rape.

Get some fucking perspective.

and as I've said politics isn't my subject and I'm not qualified enough to put forward suggestions or engage in a deep debate.

You are one of the people who Bear thinks shouldn’t have a vote? Do you think you shouldn’t be able to vote?

bear whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your judgemental attitude.
I didn't say you were the same BUT it is part of the same narrative which is solely aimed at leave voters.

dapple will you please stop being so fucking ridiculous.

You really are most peculiar with this issue.

You know damn well that’s not what I said.

You can be ‘educated’ enough in a subject to vote on it without being an expert.

Again, I’ll ask you to argue the case for taking no responsibility for your vote or leave me alone.

I don’t need to justify my judgmental attitude to myself.

I’m bloody angry that this shit show is continuing

I’ll judge that all I like.

Yet he has been called racist, a bigot, stupid, he's had people threaten to kill him, rape his wife , get him sacked ( because apparently all academics must vote remain if they're educating the future 🙄).... All because he voted leave.

This isn’t anything new. You should have seen the vitriol that No voters in the Indyref got. Including myself. Ultimately though it’s only words, people were angry and at least I had the comfort of being on the winning side. I didn’t really care because at least I “won”. Winners displaying the victim mentality is pathetic though. Threats to kill and rape are beyond the pale though, if they happened.

Threats to kill and rape are beyond the pale though, if they happened

Exactly - If they happened.

I’ve only seen extreme reactions from Leavers. The far right have been the trouble makers threatening violence.

Hundreds of thousands of Remainers have taken part in several marches with absolutely no trouble at all.

dapple I made an informed decision. I have every right to vote and did so based on my understanding of the information presented to me. Like most people I imagine......

Bear and Quartz were asking me to qualify my husbands decision to vote leave and how we should move forward.
I was explaining that it wouldn't be fair for me to put forward my husbands perspective - as a politics academic his understanding is far deeper than mine. Also, I was saying I don't feel qualified to offer a solution to the current situation.

constanz, dapples question was rhetoric as she was being a GF to me on a subject she is neutorically obsessed with.

if they happened this type of behaviour has been well publicised. As a remainer it's been hard to witness that type of behaviour. But I'm not blinkered into thinking everyone who voted remain is open minded and respectful. Just as all leave voters aren't uneducated racist bigots as some would lead us to believe.

They happened ......via twitter but that doesn't make it right.

{He has spoken about his political and economic reasons for voting leave. }

In a few sentences, what economic value does leaving have please?
I am curious as so far I have not seen a complete economic plan put forward.
Patric Minford says that there could be a good economic value to leaving and using basic WTO rules, but that it would mean UK industry will collapse, so perhaps on balance maybe it isn't a good plan after all.

i have every right to vote and did so based on my understanding of the information presented to me. Like most people I imagine......

dapple is arguing that people’s ‘right’ to vote overrides them having to take any responsibility for understanding what they are voting on ie that people can’t just turn up and put a cross in a box without having the first idea what it means.

I disagree.

Like you said, most people will have educated themselves. They have enough integrity to understand that the right to vote comes with a responsibility.

{Before momentus events it's hard to plan.
The revolutionary s before any revolution Couldn't have exact, precise plans. }

This is complete bollocks.
If you 'plan' to go out to the park for the day, you prepare by making sandwiches and putting a coat and suitable shoes on.
Without a plan you fail.
Lo and behold, after 3 years with no plan, the UK departure is failing.

1tis not my area of expertise....I was referring to my husband views We don't tend to discuss this at home otherwise it would be ALL we'd talk about and there's not enough gin in the world to keep me sane!

I'm on here to challenge unecessary judgemental attitudes

I'm on here to challenge unecessary judgemental attitudes

Unfortunately all you are achieving is proving that Leavers still can’t articulate what the benefits of leaving are to the extent where even a husband can make his wife comprehend it.

{I'm on here to challenge unnecessary judgemental attitudes}
You might have been the one bright star on the horizon.
Copping out without a couple of sentences is rater poor.

Surferjet was one who was going to be holding a party, if I remember correctly.

DH is a closet leaver (i.e. he says he voted Remain, but only comes out with Leave statements). But all he comes out with is what is wrong with the EU. I haven't heard about any benefit to the UK.

bear haha okay ....I don't know how many times I need to say this. WE CHOOSE NOT TO TALK ABOUT IT AT HOME.
We discussed it 3 years ago. We respected each others differing viewpoints and haven't felt the need to discuss it further. I respect him and know he will have made an informed decision but I don't see why it's my responsibility to articulate why he voted the way he did.
I don't feel the need to make him justify his voting behaviour. What right do I have to do that?

CostanzaG if your husband really is an academic who has a proper and sensible plan of how to brexit please get him to publish it because frankly he appears to be the only one (and yes I am being serious)

So you haven’t spoken about it for 3 years, and therefore haven’t discussed any of the developments in that entire time, yet you still somehow ‘know’ his reasons are fully informed and perfectly valid.

OK then...........

Well given he is a politics academic who appears to read everything on the topic - judging by his bookcase in the study - I can safely make an assumption that he's still well informed.
We choose not to discuss it in detail at home because we're both academics. It can be an all consuming career and if we didn't make a conscious decision to 'switch off' at home we'd end up completely frazzled. We don't talk about my subject in great detail either.