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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
wheresmymojo · 31/03/2019 20:25

In fact I've just checked (having found this out) and look at this little web of shite...

I feel like the scales are falling away from my eyes...most of this shit all boils down to a few hundred privileged white men..

That Taxpayers Alliance was specifically set up to push free market, anti left wing policy that would look like it was coming from the 'ordinary person' on the street and be picked up by the MSM as such. They employed a 24 hour a day PR service.

The CEO and the address the Alliance is registered at are also involved in Leave Means Leave, Brexit Central, British Friends of Russia and climate change denial groups!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MatthewElliottt(politicalstrategist)

Grinchly · 31/03/2019 20:25

Prehensile mammalian kryptonite.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
tobee · 31/03/2019 20:26

Thanks woman !

woman19 · 31/03/2019 20:29

Good explanatory thread on CU.

I suggest that the whole country is given a study guide to EU FOM/ GFA/ CU/SM/ Parliamentary democracy and there's a prime time quiz on it on Friday evening british tv.

twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1112325619390603264

67chevvyimpala · 31/03/2019 20:30

I'm drinking green tea and trying to remain calm

tobee · 31/03/2019 20:32

Instead of being a lazy ass and getting others to look for me I, belatedly, looked at bbc news app which says 6.00 - 6.30 kick off and votes at 8 pm. Same ballot paper as last time presumably not the exact same actual ones

woman19 · 31/03/2019 20:32

De nada tobee Smile

If you google James O 'Brien LBC, wheresmy he's v knowledgeable and cross about the tax payers alliance, I suspect there will be a good clip of him ranting/ explaining about it.

LonelyTiredandLow · 31/03/2019 20:32

@wheresmymojo I can't get the link to work but that makes sense Sad

It reminds me of how anyone who can afford an accountant can find a way to wriggle out of child maintenance. Although it's hardly a difficult thing if you have a boss who doesn't mind paying cash in hand either.

TheMShip · 31/03/2019 20:33

Very interesting that Labour has dropped their 'alternative plan'; it appears the party has swung in behind the Boles Common Market 2.0 option.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 20:35

OK now I've seen Mark Francois and Peter Griffin together, I now can not unsee it.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
OP posts:
wheresmymojo · 31/03/2019 20:39

@LonelyTiredandLow

Look up Taxpayers Alliance on Wikipedia...take a look at the link it has in the article on them to 55 Fulton Street and to their CEO Matthew Elliott.

Sybelline · 31/03/2019 20:41

OMG, it's uncanny. Peter Griffin has more gravitas though.

I think it was you who said that Arron Banks' head was sitting crookedly on his neck. I haven't been able to unsee that since! Grin

TheMShip · 31/03/2019 20:42

@RedToothBrush - for your OP in the inevitable new thread tomorrow, here's the table of motions from the Brigid Fowler tweet in text form:

Motions for 1/4:

A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit. Also tabled for 27/3 (C) but not selected.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. Nearly identical wording to motion (B) from 27/3. 160-400 (240)

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. Tabled on 27/3 (J). 265-271 (8)

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU). Broadly similar to motion (D) from 27/3, with some interesting changes. 189-283 (94)

E) Kyle, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. Tabled on 27/3 (M, Beckett). 268-295 (27)

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal. More detailed version of 27/3 motion (L). 184-293 (109)

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA. Slightly modified version of 27/3 motion (H). 64-377 (313)

Motions from 27/3 that have not been re-tabled:

(O) Fysh/Malthouse Compromise B (managed no deal)
(K) Labour 'alternative plan'

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 20:45

Thank you TheMship most handy. I havent even thought that far ahead! I suspect we'll hit a new thread tonight.

OP posts:
ElenadeClermont · 31/03/2019 20:46

What is Labour's alternative plan?

TheMShip · 31/03/2019 20:49

@peston says the Snell/Nandy amendment is to be added to the MV4 attempt. That's the one that gives MPs power in the future relationship negotations, and it gets her past the Erskine-May issue and possibly converts enough Labour switchers to back her deal.

www.itv.com/news/2019-03-31/theresa-may-will-be-saved-or-sunk-by-mps-customs-union-vote/

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 20:54

Emma Desouza @ emmaandjdesouza
This is important. On March 7th the UKG changed the definition of an EEA citizen to exclude those who are also British.

They have alao stated that "as a matter of law" the people of Northern Ireland are British by birth.

NI born Irish citizens will not be considered EU citizens

The relevant line under definition of an EEA citizen is "who is not also a British citizen"

There's an exception for those that have naturalised but that would not be the case for anyone born in Northern Ireland. It's considered automatic.

This is a change to the previous rules

I see people putting out requests for a statement from @simoncoveney @theSNP @allianceparty @sinnfeinireland & @SDLPlive I support these calls

This change in the immigration rules will not only affect those who are Irish but those who choose to be dual nationals under the GFA

If we put this into black and white.

Irish citizen born in the South will be accepted as EU citizens in the United kingdom.

Irish citizens born in the North will not.

How can the Home Secretary justify splitting Irish citizens into two categories?

They are putting us into a unique category where we will have different rights to Irish citizens born in the South & will be among the only EU citizens to be unable to retain rights under the settlement scheme.

This could be interesting...

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 20:59

Connor Fortune @ writesrights
This is an important, somewhat overlooked, Brexit conundrum. Of the millions of EU citizens living on UK soil are many Irish EU citizens born in Northen Ireland. The UK govt cannot erase their citizenship, under the terms of an international peace treaty

Don’t believe me? Check out the official government site: “under the @BelfastAgmt, people born in Northern Ireland can choose to be British citizens, Irish citizens or both.” Irish citizens are de facto EU citizens.
www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/about-northern-ireland

If you are Northern Irish, particularly if you are young, and less sectarian in outlook, why would you actively choose to be British rather than Irish post Brexit if you are an EU citizen by default?

Of course this is why the government are attempting it, but I can't see how this is going to wash legally.

NI will end up as part of Ireland by the backdoor through this alone!

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
OP posts:
prettybird · 31/03/2019 21:00

Is that not a direct breach of the GFA in that citizens themselves - and not the government - can choose how they identify themselves? ConfusedAngry

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 21:08

Can't see how its consistent with the GFA...

www.ft.com/content/5fd0d808-53c4-11e9-91f9-b6515a54c5b1?desktop=true&segmentId=d8d3e364-5197-20eb-17cf-2437841d178a#myft:notification:instant-email:content
Tory tensions rise as Theresa May faces agonising choice on Brexit
Party is more Eurosceptic than ever, but PM needs Commons support for deal

Chris Patten, a former Conservative cabinet minister and EU commissioner, argues that the party — which has many fewer members than the Labour opposition — has become more extreme as its base has shrunk in size.

“We have these individuals who are economically illiterate jihadis, Maoists, groups who are focused on an idea of sovereignty which is mythical,” he said. “It is a variation of English nationalism that undermines the old Conservative belief in the United Kingdom.”

and

Lord Patten believes the party is heading for existential “mayhem” at the hands of Eurosceptics. “I have never believed that it was possible to act in the national interest on Brexit and the EU and keep the Conservative party together,” he said. “I don’t think it can be done.”

Whole article worth reading about how screwed the party are internally.

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Peregrina · 31/03/2019 21:11

This is important. On March 7th the UKG changed the definition of an EEA citizen to exclude those who are also British.

Does this conflict with the GFA? It does show the dirty tricks this Government will find time to get up to. Why anyone thinks that they are trustworthy is beyond me - so Labour MPs, please take note if Theresa May promises you anything.

We had already seen Government jobs advertised in NI for British Citizens only which had to be withdrawn because of the conflict.

They are bigger fools than I thought possible - how is this going to save Theresa May's "precious union"? (Which is only precious because she needs the votes.) I can only see this hastening Irish reunification.

LonelyTiredandLow · 31/03/2019 21:12

Taxpayers Alliance news article on blocking clean air initiative in Bath. Rather unsurprisingly mentions JCB...
Much of the TPA’s funding comes from abroad. In the last five years, it has received £217m from US-based donors.
The ‘who funds you’ campaign for think-tank transparency grades think-tanks on how open they are about their funding. The TPA receives an ‘E’ grade, the lowest possible, alongside the Adam Smith Institute, Center for Policy Studies, Institue for Economic Affairs and Policy Exchange.

Looks like a perfect cover for funding...

wheresmymojo · 31/03/2019 21:13

I can't read the FT article (paywall) but I did smirk at one of the other bylines:

"Liam Fox's trade department cancels business Brexit briefings - halt to round tables after after details on lack of deals leaked by infuriated participants"

Peregrina · 31/03/2019 21:14

I see I have cross posted with others. I take from this: the Tories will trash the GFA in order to get Brexit through.

Peregrina · 31/03/2019 21:16

Posted a little too soon: what happens to those NI citizens who only hold Irish passports? Is the UK Government going to tell them they are not valid?

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