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Brexit

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina

953 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2019 19:58

Todays News Round Up (so far):

  1. MV2.5 failed by 58 votes.
  2. Labour Rebels were not tempted by May's promises of consultation with parliament over the next phase. This is because this is not a binding promise and with a possible change of leader this is even more lacking in substance
  3. More ERG than expected switched to supporting the WA. This included leadership hopefuls Johnson and Raab. But there were still 28 hold outs plus 6 Tory Remain Rebels.
  4. Macron said that the EU would be the ones to decide the timetable for no deal if we failed to pass the WA or ask for an extension by 12th April. Thus 12th April is NOT necessarily the cliff edge we fear, though it still is no deal. (Its just a possible time delay). As far as a lengthy extension goes he would want not just EP election participation but also more in the way of a concrete way forward than we currently have though.
  5. The EUCO are meeting on the April 10th. Thus we have until then to work something out. Thats quite the ask.
  6. A series of mini deals in the event of No Deal is something the EU are firmly ruling out. And yet the myth that this will happen is still out there.
  7. No Deal would probably mean the Backstop being in effect anyway in practice, simply because its the only way to stop a hard border.
  8. The penny has dropped with the DUP over this, and they have finally abandoned the idea of a hard brexit and possibly brexit all together if it threatens NI position in the union. They would rather remain. Thus the GFA problem is at least acknowledged.
  9. The DUP did something curious in the indicative votes. They signalled where there was room for them to move, in how they voted - they revealed what they were opposed to and what they might be talked into with their abstaining
  10. There seems to be moves elsewhere to a softer brexit with more signatories to Common Market 2.0 gaining support and more vocal support for the Customs Union.
  11. Donald Tusk signalled that the EU could change the PD to a custom union relatively easily.
  12. May had a meeting earlier with ministers who are urging her to go for No Deal now
  13. May said cryptically after the vote in the commons that the process was almost beyond what the house could provide. What she meant by this isn't obvious.
  14. The problem is that any deal requires the WA to pass... the WA merely is the divorce arrangement and not the economic and political alignment aftewards. All soft Brexits require the WA.

The DUP will never support the backstop.
And Labour although they say they accept the WA will never support a blind Brexit and distrust the Tories fearing they will backtrack on any PD.
The only way to square this circle is to have a legally binding PD which looks a lot like the backstop with NI and the rUK in it.
Which the ERG would never buy into.
And the EU might not allow.

And to get an extension we'd need to pass legislation for EP elections - and its difficult to work out where May would get a majority in the HoC from to facilitate that without the government collasping in the attempt.

Thus as we move forward the stakes get higher, and without any progress on a deal the chances of both No Deal and Revoke get higher. And I don't fancy testing May's resolve to revoke - especially since that might require parliamentary approval too. Is there a majority to revoke if the alternative really is No Deal?

Parliament needs to move FAST to avoid both. Parliament isn't good at moving fast.

I also note that the DUP's political survival might well rest now with remaining. Apparently like the Conservatives, the uncertainity of Brexit has lead to a loss of confidence in the party amongst business leaders, which has led to a drop in donations. This is coupled with May's threat that No Deal would result in Direct Rule. The likes of Arlene are on the Stormont Pay Role, so this would starve them of money there. And this is all without the prospect of polling on an all Ireland referendum. The ERG hanging them out to dry, only serves to make it or the more likely.

Surely an election beckons one way or another, later this year? This is unsustainable for the DUP. And for May who has today, refused to rule one out...

Prediction: We are going to get through a lot of threads and have late nights between the 9th and 12th.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
TemporaryPermanent · 31/03/2019 17:43

Well.. let's not forget Oliver Letwin was the poll tax's most passionate partisan for a long time.

Nobody is perfect. My goodness we need to stop setting people up to be perfect and then punishing them for one thing we don't like, or a past problem. Sometimes people have the right solution to a particular problem even if they are not otherwise great people.

wheresmymojo · 31/03/2019 17:50

He actually admits that the policies he was involved in when in Thatcher's Govt were wrong. That it was an error of youth and inexperience of life. That he and others had been so swept up in the idea of creating opportunities for people they overlooked the people that weren't in a position to take up those opportunities in whatever way (through disability, circumstance, etc).

And not spin...he comes across as having very genuinely learnt some lessons.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 17:52

Harry Cole @mrharrycole
Mark Francois vows ultimate revenge...

This is why Oliver Letwin is currently looking great.

Mark Francois is so pissed at Boris Johnson being Boris Johnson he wants to go down Waterstones and rant at perplexed staff about his WWII fantasies about Churchill.

I bet he's tearing down his fanboy drawing of Johnson dressed as Churchill from his bedroom wall too.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
OP posts:
1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 17:53

{It may be that the only way to lance the boil of this mindset is to let them see that}

The 'jingoistic' crap that will come from the UK if the UK remains, particularly with so many anti EU presenting themselves as MEPs would not be good for Europe as a whole and risks serious rifts as it will be seen that the UK has been allowed to walk over everyone. Why should Greece, the Eastern Europeans bother to work constructively when the UK has been allowed to inflict massive financial losses?
While there is a good showing of online voters, translating this into strongly pro Europe politicians in the UK and MEPs that really want to engage with the European project. I am not seeing this myself.

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 17:55

Meanwhile meet the TiTs

Harry Cole @mrharrycole
The last place you want to be in a Tory leadership race pre nominations opening is the frontrunner...

If there is just one political certainty at the moment, its the fact that the Tory Leadership Election will at least be entertaining (as long as you don't think about how one of them will one day be leading the country)

Hunt and Javid. Theresa in Trousers.

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
OP posts:
1tisILeClerc · 31/03/2019 17:56

{ Sometimes people have the right solution to a particular problem even if they are not otherwise great people}
Indeed, Churchill was the 'right man for the job' at that time. Relatively useless as a peacetime politician.

TatianaLarina · 31/03/2019 18:15

Will Labour & centrist Remainers close their eyes, grit their teeth and vote Labour to keep out the Tories, or will they vote for one of the smaller parties that have been true to Remain?

Corbyn + Brexit - they can fuck off. I’m voting LD.

Our Tory MP is a strong Remainer who has voted against the government in 75% Remain borough. So I don’t know if she will be rewarded for fighting Remain or whether everyone will punish the Tories in spite of her.

ElenadeClermont · 31/03/2019 18:32

My Labour constituency party asked me if I would campaign for them again in a GE. I said no. They were very surprised.

LoonvanBoon · 31/03/2019 18:32

I'm dependent on meds (for reasonable quality of life, not for life itself) and am horrified at the idea of no deal. That's one of the main reasons why, as a remainer, I would be happy if the withdrawal agreement had passed on Friday - especially as that's the only binding bit of the deal anyway.

I was quite disappointed that there was so little spirit of compromise when it came to the indicative votes last week, too. The conservatives seemed to be the worst - loads voting for no deal (Baron?) and nothing else; but I hoped that more remain MPs and members of other parties might compromise too, rather than just ticking PV and Revoke. I'd love either of those outcomes and went on the PV march last weekend; but I'd take anything over no deal.

It does feel that a lot of remain MPs and, clearly, remainers outside the HoC too, are much more comfortable with high stakes risks in the cause of avoiding Brexit altogether than I am. As others have said, it's those who are vulnerable in one way or another - financially, healthwise etc - who are likely to bear the brunt.

I don't know what the answer is. I get that those who've been consistently anti Brexit and didn't vote to trigger Article 50 have a strong case for not enabling any form of it. But I just really, really fear that no deal is going to happen and I wish that everyone would compromise. Especially as we'll have to sign up to all the key points of the WA to have trade talks with the EU after a no deal.

LoonvanBoon · 31/03/2019 18:33

Oh, and I don't think no deal would 'lance the [far right] boil' anyway.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/03/2019 18:33

Mojo A politician actually learning from experience and admitting error ?
Wow, that's very unusual and I can forgive a lot for that

DGRossetti · 31/03/2019 18:43

Mojo A politician actually learning from experience and admitting error ? Wow, that's very unusual and I can forgive a lot for that

Has he a book to sell ?

Portillo springs to mind - notice how much more reasonable he seems now he's not a politician.

There's also a Damascene conversion effect in drugs policy - mysteriously the second senior policemen and politicians no longer have anything to make from "the war on drugs" they launch into print telling us how wrong they were.

Never underestimate the force of belief in someone whose job depends on that belief.

Sostenueto · 31/03/2019 18:49

Hope you all enjoyed Mothers day! Wine
I'm just recovering from a meal. It took real effort to eat it but by gum! It was so lovely! Am lounging on settee sick bowl ready just in case but it was worth it!

yolofish · 31/03/2019 19:03

Whoever I vote for in the forthcoming GE wont make a blind bit of difference - Damian Collins could dance the hula hula stark naked on the Cenotaph (sorry for that horrible image) and he'd still get in.

Having said that, I will vote for anyone who offers the proper choice of Revoke. I dont care if its permanent revoke, or revoke now and then regroup, reconsider and put it to the 'people' again. But the current stalemate is poisonous and only going to make things worse.

Surely, if someone (with any balls) said to the 'people': look, we understand there was a small minority to leave. We are not denying you this opportunity, but we think we need to rethink how we go about this so that we do it in the best way for Britain, so we're taking a raincheck for a year or so, then the HoC could get behind that?

(Sod the bloke with the petrol bombs etc).

yolofish · 31/03/2019 19:05

sorry, small majority for leave; but the point is it was a narrow margin and therefore we/THEY need to find something that people can at least vaguely support.. I know, naive, stupid, hoping against hope etc.

Langrish · 31/03/2019 19:45

“Portillo springs to mind - notice how much more reasonable he seems now he's not a politician.”

Indeed, the metamorphosis from Rambo at Defence to everyone’s favourite weird uncle is nothing short of astonishing.

Langrish · 31/03/2019 19:55

Just wanted to say, the breadth of knowledge (on both sides of the argument) on this thread is impressive. I have my opinions, we all do, but reading through this and other Brexit threads have shown me how little I actually knew. I’ve changed my mind about a couple of things, viewpoints I hadn’t even considered, and I feel so much better informed since stumbling across this site. So everyone, RedToothBrush et al, thanks for that!
(No, I haven’t been drinking 😁 and for the record, still desperately want to Remain Grin

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 31/03/2019 19:56

I agree with langrish

wheresmymojo · 31/03/2019 19:59

Mojo A politician actually learning from experience and admitting error ? Wow, that's very unusual and I can forgive a lot for that
*
Has he a book to sell ?*

Ah...you dreadful cynics! Grin

No book...and no books planned. Not his thing. And he has said he hasn't seen the nasty things the Torygraph have been saying about him because...he doesn't read it!

Honestly, have a listen....

itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/political-thinking-with-nick-robinson/id1224154223?mt=2&i=1000433739831

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p074xzcz

Langrish · 31/03/2019 20:02

Aw shucks Rufus, I’m basking in the rosey glow of feeling like Nick clegg now.

Ooh, hang on ........ 😱

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 31/03/2019 20:06

langrish

Grin

My friend and i voted lib dem for the first time after the coalition

And the lib dems tanked...we reckon we jinxed them Grin

wheresmymojo · 31/03/2019 20:10

I'm actually feeling a little naive at the moment having only just found out that the Taxpayers Alliance is not at all an alliance of taxpayers. Hmm

I mean...I knew it had a right wing edge but I at least thought it was a grassroots organisation of more right wing tax payers

tobee · 31/03/2019 20:16

Where's a good source to find out the timetable for tomorrow, please?

woman19 · 31/03/2019 20:20

Not a timetable but it's the motions tobee

Westministenders: The DisUnited Kingdom of Remaina
woman19 · 31/03/2019 20:24

@Brigid_Fowler
Assuming HoC tomorrow approves the business motion from Letwin et al to govern tomorrow's #indicativevotes, voting on paper ballots due to take place 8-8.30pm UK time, so result announced later in the evening. /ends

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