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Brexit

Westminstenders: And I neeeedddd moreeeee timeeeeee!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2019 12:57

We need Time!
Its the one thing we don't have.

Todays vote is on extending a50.

To the displeasure of leavers, Bercow has selected amendments:

e) Corbyn Amendment
demands the government should “provide parliamentary time for this house to find a majority for a different approach”.

h) Wollaston Amendment
cross party amendment requesting to extend to allow the ability to legislate for a PV

i) Benn Amendment
cross party backbenchers take over parliamentary time from 20th March to find a majority way forward which gives justification for an extension

j) Bryant Amendment
prevents meaningful vote III

After yesterday's vote, May is left with effectively four options:

1) Pass the WA and go for a short technical extension.
An extension would have numbers in the HoC, but passing the WA is a struggle and it's reliant on the EU granting extension which is probably viable in this circumstances.

2) Be defeated getting the WA through and be forced into asking for a long extension as a result. This would include EP elections.
This option is politically toxic to the tories and its unlikely a long extension would pass the HoC. The EU would still need a justification for a long extension - a PV would be the natural option - but not clear if that could pass the HoC. Ditto passing legislation for EP elections. Whole scenario is unlikely

3) Be forced to revoke
Tory party big red button of self destruct

4) Actively decide to pursue an illegal no deal Brexit
Let's not think of the ramification

Going through this at speed, my initial reactions to this are:

If e) passes it doesn't really make much difference to May's choices here, but Labour might have more say.

If h) passes it might make 2) more likely

If i) passes it might open up alternative options

If j) passes we might have a real issue if its the only amendment that passes - it would leave a straight choice of Revoke or No Deal UNLESS i) passes as well.

But there might be other things that are not hitting me right in the face now.

As it stands, Hard Line Brexiteers were earlier today making noises that they would now support the WA - including whispers that this would include the DUP who would be likely to set off a chain reaction of support.

However which (if any) amendments pass today could well affect whether thats even a possibility.

As a result this vote needs to carry the health warning 'Be Careful what you wish for'. What you would LIKE might be extremely high risk and might jeapordise the main vote and the chances of an extension at all.

So whilst Leavers might be unhappy about the choices, it might well ultimately work best for No Dealers. Or it could be a gift for Remainers. Bercow's selections are not necessarily biased for this reason. He does not know the outcome here. If anything it looks like he's actually trying to put more options on the table for the house, rather than allow May to dictate to the house. Which is exactly what he should be doing. He's given parliament the power.

I suspect we will not fully understand what is going on tonight EVEN MORE than last night. And it will take a short while for everyone to calibrate what the eventual result actually is going to mean.

THIS is the most important vote yet. And it has the potential its going to end up m-e-s-s-y.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 16/03/2019 12:26

I think that Leave March is doomed.

They’ll have an arguement about what direction to take to London and end up splitting off into different groups. Probably claiming they meant to end up in Edinburgh all along.

FinallyHere · 16/03/2019 12:47

Is it the same with Deutchmarks? That was a truly strong currency. Do people still go on about it?

While some may be swayed by emotional ties to a currency, there are hard economic impacts , some losers and some winders when currencies adjust against each other.

I have heard voices lamenting the DM, but the case is very different to the GBP. The pound really needs to keep devaluing, while without the Euro the currency in Germany would be much stronger.

A weaker currency makes your exports more attractive, and your country more attractive to visitors and possibly investors (who then take the profits back to their own country. )

A stronger currency makes anyone with capital richer, but encourages imports which appear cheaper than home industry things.

Germany is doing quite well with the Euro but those who would benefit from a stronger currency will lament the DM

The strength of the DM reflected the strength of Germany 's economy since the Second World War. Since a difference compared to after the first, where punitive reparations lead ultimately to the events of the 30's and 40s.

RedToothBrush · 16/03/2019 12:48

Thread about Opt Out Organ Donation and I can't help but think those saying "is nothing sacred!" etc are leavers. Short sighted with huge double standards, would happily benefit from the system but want to ensure they don't have to contribute..

Tbf I'm against an opt out system for reasons relating to possible abuse of the system and how it might leave the vulnerable exposed.

OP posts:
OhYouBadBadKitten · 16/03/2019 12:58

I'm against an opt out system too.

BlueEyeshadow · 16/03/2019 13:01

Boles says he'll keep the Tory whip if it's offered "on acceptable terms", according to the New European. Sounds like an ultimatum...

RhubarbCrumbled · 16/03/2019 13:02

Here's a really easy to understand article about events this week from The Week Junior. On the same page is an item about the Brexit Memory Museum at the Museum of London. If anyone wants to contribute, Museums always welcome items and especially lived memories of events as they're happening.

Westminstenders: And I neeeedddd moreeeee timeeeeee!
Westminstenders: And I neeeedddd moreeeee timeeeeee!
DGRossetti · 16/03/2019 13:10

Thread about Opt Out Organ Donation and I can't help but think those saying "is nothing sacred!" etc are leavers.

Much more interesting is the number of people claiming they had no idea it was happening/never heard about a consultation/saw nothing in the news.

Presumably these are people - or a lot of them - voted in the referendum ? How informed were they then ?

(Add to that the number of morons people that dive into a parking penalty thread and insist you can't be taken to court for a private ticket - despite the High Court judgement in Beavis of four years ago ... talk about living in the past ...)

On the subject of organ donations, the DGR solution - far too simple, clearly - would have been to act on what a deceased persons wishes were as lodged with the organ donation service (those little cards you get). Job done. It still mystifies me (and no one has ever explained it to me) why - having got a clear indication of the deceased persons wishes, there's this pantomime asking the relatives. Sorry I wanted my organs to be donated. That's my wishes. Job done.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/03/2019 13:16

I agree, DGR. I'd be pissed off of my living relatives go against my choice, made willingly whilst alive. I give blood whilst alive and you can harvest any useful bit of me when I'm dead, if I'm a suitable donor.

DGRossetti · 16/03/2019 13:21

Sadly - at 73 pints - my donation days are over for various reasons. Probably not a bad thing - the appointment system (or lack thereof) was starting to piss me off (and the lies about it from the executive even more so). But how else are we going to be able to force the NHS to but US blood ?

LonelyTiredandLow · 16/03/2019 13:22

When my mum died she wanted her organs donated but they would only take her corneas. It was a weird thought at first, especially when you've just suffered a big loss, but ultimately it was her choice and I respected her wishes. I was glad I did when I got a letter several months later from the person who had received them telling me how much she appreciated being able to see again and what a difference to her life my mum had made.

That was just one 'organ'.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/03/2019 13:25

Wow, 73 is amazing. I started too late in life to get that many.

And I agree re the appt system. It's an utter joke, quite frankly. It's frustrating when they say they need more blood but then also make it nigh-on impossible to get to an appt to donate.

That's really touching about your mum, Lonely. Flowers

LonelyTiredandLow · 16/03/2019 13:30

I've also got a friend with CF who had a heart transplant. Donated organs can mean so much to so many.

Been busy with dd most of the morning making various things. Sign/placard for the march coming up this afternoon! If anyone can't make it and has a good slogan we can use I'm embarrassingly open to offers Blush Wink

DGRossetti · 16/03/2019 13:32

Wow, 73 is amazing. I started too late in life to get that many.

Not long after I started donating - early 90s ? - they ran a special "baby panel" for donors that were CMV -ve, which it turned out I was. So a lot of my blood (O -ve) has gone to prem babies.

If remainers wanted to make a newsworthy point and help others at the same time, donating a pint for the EU might not be such a bad idea Hmm. It would obviously cause the appointment system to disappear (maybe never to be seen) but the headline value would be priceless as it's hard to spin badly. Imagine if every one of the 700,000 signed up to also donate a pint of blood .....

LonelyTiredandLow · 16/03/2019 13:34

That's an amazing idea DG
I donate blood for EU Smile

Butterymuffin · 16/03/2019 13:48

This whole process has shown that nothing is certain except MPs don't do what they say they will or what we think they will and nothing seems to change yet the 29th moves ever closer

Agreed. The one thing we can say is that anything could happen in the next 13 days. So I'm continuing to hope.

Would love to give blood but having received it myself I'm not allowed to. Thank you to anyone who does this Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 16/03/2019 13:52

DG I also find it most unfair that families can overwrite the expressed wishes of the dead to donate.
I regard it as overwriting a will, because those organs belonged to the dead person.

I'm ambivalent about opt-out, but

I would be completely in favour of a law that if a dead person is on the donation register, then the organs they specified can be removed without the permission of NOK
(who in some cases might even have consented, but can't be contacted to sign the forms in time)

RedToothBrush · 16/03/2019 14:09

I was well aware of the consultational. I think the subject is emotive and one where its socially unacceptable to say you are not for an opt out system because of that.

Ultimately its not about MY personal opinion of whether I would donate (or accept a donation), but about whether everyone has real capacity to consent and consequences if where there is a gray area.

I don't think it's something which is quite as black and white as is made out.

I do however agree that if someone has made it their expressed wish to donate, family overriding that isnt right.

OP posts:
jasjas1973 · 16/03/2019 14:44

@SparklySneakers

We've run out of time! more moderate Tory MPs will think of their jobs/no-deal and the far right ERG/DUP will now look at shaping the future relationship in their image or walking away from the WA... in their minds, the WA will allow this.

What really pisses me off is that Labour have enabled brexit by their "respecting the referendum" shit, ignoring that it was a corrupt campaign, subject to Police investigation, that a minority (of the electorate) voted for it, their membership don't support any sort of brexit and most importantly, will hit the poorest the hardest.

They have provided no alternative to the Tories.

Littlespaces · 16/03/2019 14:49

This is the only analysis I can find about numbers TM has to convert from ERG for her Withdrawal Agreement Meaningless Vote 3.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/15/irreconcilables-waverers-converts-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-lies/

Conversations with key players and analysis of vote data/public comments suggest:
31 back deal
19 persuadable
28 unappeasable

So 19, plus DUP 10 = 29 plus bribing some Labour MPs doesn't seem to get her close enough. Or am I missing something?

Littlespaces · 16/03/2019 15:03

It was defeated by 149 votes last time. So she may get 60 plus some Labour.

Still not enough to close the gap.

SleightOfMind · 16/03/2019 15:10

I don’t think May’s deal will pass. Too many ConMPs frightened of the constituency party members/leave voters and jockeying for leadership contest positions.

Labour won’t support May in significant numbers either.

Loving the #GammonballRun thread though. Nearly as funny as the GPS cutlery nonsense!

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 16/03/2019 15:12

So if MV3 fails will she go for MV4?

67chevvyimpala · 16/03/2019 15:13

Dunno.

Stranger things have happened.

Littlespaces · 16/03/2019 15:14

This is the only other analysis I can find.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6814451/DUP-key-getting-Mays-Brexit-deal-Parliament-faces-uphill-struggle.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490

It would take the DUP, plus a sizeable chunk of ERG, plus eight (?) Labour rebels. Everything has to go right for her.

prettybird · 16/03/2019 15:18

She needs 75 to switch (assuming they all vote and don't chicken out by abstaining Angry).

So that could be 50 Conservative, 10 DUP with their increased bung and 15 bribed Labour Shock

It would be interesting if she were to try to "bribe" the SNP with the promise of approving a Section 30 notice Hmm. I don't think that they would fall for that.....it would be a bear pit to fall into and they're too canny to be taken in by it quite apart from the fact that May's "promises" are meaningless Hmm.