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Brexit

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 10:01

May went to Strasbourg to improve the WA. She claimed to have won 'legally binding' assurances which mean we can't be trapped in the backstop.

Despite the claim of 'legally binding' it seems that this isn't true. It reduces the risk of being trapped but does not eliminate it.

The whole thing is just political theatre designed to give Brexiteers the opportunity to climb down and support May's deal. Whether that will happen remains to seen.

The right wing press has largely been supportive of May this morning but the ERG were scathing last night which doesn't bode well.

For May to pass the deal she needs the DUP to effectively trigger dominoes of support. If she fails to get that it's highly unlikely it will pass.

In order to pass the deal May needs an extra 116 votes compared to last time. This breaks down to roughly 10 DUP, 65 of the ERG, 4 Independents (Field/Hermon /Hopkins/Austin) and 40 Labour.

The Labour MPs won't go for it unless the numbers look tight and the DUP are on board.

We should get a feel for how things are going as the day goes on. I expect more negative comments on it to be expressed as the day goes on.

We might yet see some amendments and curveball thrown into the mix too. However none of those tabled so far this morning look likely to pass (Labour are yet to table anything)

The Cabinet meets at 9.30am. This will give us an idea of how it's played out there.

At 11.15am Barclay faces the Brexit select committee so some more scrutiny there.

The crucial moment is early afternoon before as May opens the debate on the Meaningful Vote. It is expected there will be an Urgent Question tabled to Cox the Attorney General to assess whether his legal advice that the backstop could be a trap, has changed. This is where thing will come into focus and we will get a good idea of whether the deal will pass or how heavy the defeat will be. How heavy it is, is important.

Word is that Cox said no to the validity of May’s 'legally binding assurances' last night and has been pretty much been sent away to 'think about it with a team of lawyers'. Cox has replied this is "Bollocks". But you do have to wonder if this is what May did in the Home Office with her ridiculous court cases and the A50 case. None of which went well for her in court in the end. However Cox did tell The Mail yesterday he would only change his legal advice if the risk of being trapped was 'eliminated' not merely reduced.

If its going badly a No10 damage limitation exercise will be in full swing by about 4pm.

If The Withdrawal Agreement fails by a small amount May might be able to try again. If it fails by a lot we really are into political chaos. May's position might be untenable if the Cabinet withdraw their support. If May stays that's not necessarily going to stave off even greater crisis.

Theresa May looks likely to go for an extension until 23rd May. The EU have more or less agreed to this. But this might be too short to get an alternative plan on the table. And May would be unlikely to be the person to do this anyway as it requires a huge uturn. The 23rd May date is crucial - if the UK doesn't make contingency plans to take part in European Elections its a cliff edge. A deadline of 23rd May is also too short for another referendum.

The only way we get a 2nd ref is to take the option of a longer extension which requires us to take part in European elections, and this is politically unpalatable to many Tories as it endangers Brexit completely.

This is what ERGers need to weigh up. Are they really committed to no deal. If they are not then the WA is perhaps the only way to stop no deal AND the possibility of no brexit.

However the chances of the legislation for European elections and a long extension getting through the Commons looks extremely unlikely too. But who knows where we will be come the end of April.

Thus if the WA fails then the chances of No Deal sky rocket, even if no deal is blocked by Parliament tomorrow. Unless those same MPs are prepared to vote for EP elections further down the line if need be. This might be the only way to truly block no deal. Has this dawned on Tory moderates? And that's what remain moderates and Labour MPs need to weigh up. I don't think the penny has dropped with many. Yet.

The trouble is that the WA problem is really with hardline ERG Tories not moderates nor Labour anyway.

Voting starts at 7pm.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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JustAnotherPoster00 · 12/03/2019 11:27

PMK thanks Red

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 11:27

tablesalt
EU Commission - summary of WA Backstop

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-releaseMEMO-18-64233_en.htm

bellinisurge · 12/03/2019 11:29

I would add that the Good Friday Agreement requires there to be no hard border. If we break our obligations under the GFA, it doesn't really bode well for making further agreements. And that is without even considering the consequences of destroying a hard won peace agreement.

BollocksToBrexit · 12/03/2019 11:30

Surely the backstop will be forever. I know it says it's only temporary until a deal is sorted, but that deal would have to resolve the border issue. Therefore the only deal that would avoid the backstop is customs union and single market, which the government have insisted is never going to happen.

SparklySneakers · 12/03/2019 11:30

My stomach is awful today (gastritis) and I have a sore throat/sinus pain/toothache/headache combo and 2 children off sick. It's pissing it down and storm Gareth due tonight. Everything is negative. I've never known such a clusterfuck in our country. This sort of crisis happened in their countries when I was growing up, we never had anything like it here. We were strong and stable. Now we are a laughing stock whom everyone is despairing with.

bellinisurge · 12/03/2019 11:31

I read the legal advice. I was trying to block out the bit from Dirty Harry where he says" So. You have to ask yourself 'Am I feeling lucky?'. Well? Are you feeling lucky? Punk?".

JustAnotherPoster00 · 12/03/2019 11:32

Still M.A.Y. (featuring Snoop Mogg) - Theresa May's Chronic Brexit

worth a look if you remember cassette boys work on IDS

Maybe83 · 12/03/2019 11:32

Yeah I seen confirmation of the IRA and the fucking DUP would do well to remember exactly what is at risk today. They have checked out of the peace process as have the British government so it was inevitable really.

The disintergration of the peace process and the economic risk is huge but not to worry once the DUP don't feel they are different to the rest of the UK.

Idiots NI is bloody different. Wales and Scotland don't need an international peace treaty to allow members of society to live a normal life! My blood is absolutely boiling.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 12/03/2019 11:32

BCF, if there are continued extensions to avoid a backstop isn’t that just staying in EU indefinitely. You and I might be happier as it’s like not leaving at all but my great fear because it is not what leavers want, not the will of the people etcetc , extensions will be resisted leading to a cliff edge.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 12/03/2019 11:33

thanks red

SparklySneakers · 12/03/2019 11:36

Politics today is interesting. Live word soup from Westminster. Chairman: yes or no mr Barclay. Yes or no. Yes or no. It would be funny if it wasn't so fucking serious.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 12/03/2019 11:36

Cox under questioning agrees that if we try to stop the Backstop because we say the EU are acting out of breech of faith but the arbitrator disagrees then we can't exit the back stop. Obvious, but hes said it out loud.

1tisILeClerc · 12/03/2019 11:37

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney
There is of course the border between Gibraltar and Spain.
Spain has 'resolution' of this neatly filed on it's 'to do' list.

1tisILeClerc · 12/03/2019 11:40

{Yeah I seen confirmation of the IRA}
Strange how the police seem to have reported this on the morning of an important vote.

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 11:46

but my great fear because it is not what leavers want, not the will of the people etcetc , extensions will be resisted leading to a cliff edge.

The problem is - and it was flagged ages ago - even if the UK tries to walk away with no deal and no intention of doing a deal, the GFA and the UKs solemn undertakings to uphold it don't just "go away". The UK still needs to find a way to engage with the foreign power it will have butting up against it's own territory. And that still needs to be done without imposing a border.

If the UK breaks the GFA, it will be impossible for any proper country to enter into any form of diplomatic or commercial discussions.

This is what regular posters here have been saying all along. Even crashing to a no-deal solves nothing.

The bottom line is "the people" that voted for Brexit were sold a pup. As things stand it's no more deliverable than if they'd been promised nice summers, no queues in shops, and the Queen to live forever.

And, quite frankly, speaking only for myself, my patience is finished with trying to accommodate people who are baying for the impossible - why should they be allowed to hold us ransom ? It's a little akin to watching religious nutters awaiting the second coming.

Again.

Missbel · 12/03/2019 11:47

Thank you Red - these summaries are really helpful, if dispiriting. I'm torn between hoping the WA falls and that we can get on with a People's Vote or better still just revoke (which I don't believe will happen) and hoping that it passes because it's better than No Deal. What an utter mess.

And I do worry about the future - the levels of corruption, dark money and suspect influence that are emerging throughout this process do not bode well for the future of democracy. I cam across the Tweet below about "click farms" this morning:
twitter.com/JamieJBartlett/status/1105151495773847552

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 12/03/2019 11:47

Sorry TisI, forgot about Gibraltar where of course there is already a hard border.

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 12/03/2019 11:50

DGR yes agree with everything you say.

And with Misbelle.

I just want a Revoke please, just a little one , ....or a rewind back to 3 years ago .

NoWordForFluffy · 12/03/2019 11:52

PMK.

Thanks, Red.

I'm feeling quite meh about all this now. I'm tired of all the re-hashing and the desperate way some MPs are trying to make last night mean something it bloody doesn't.

So, I'll see what the votes bring on the WA and whichever amendments are voted on and adjust my mental response accordingly.

I'm still dosed up on codeine so don't have my usual clarity of thought right now. I'm coming off codeine after tomorrow so should return to normal soon after!

I've never been so glad to be off work sick though as at least I've time to process what the hell is going on all round rather than trying to fit it in around work.

I did like William Hague's response to everything that's going on though. It was very measured and I agreed with what he said. A small moment of clarity and sense in a universe of insanity.

dontcallmelen · 12/03/2019 11:53

Thank you Red, I’m feeling the same as DGR it’s like some mad cult which we all know never ever ends well.

Motheroffourdragons · 12/03/2019 11:55

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

1tisILeClerc · 12/03/2019 11:55

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney
It is the Gibraltans and Spanish that would be worried about this.
Spain has it's own tensions with Catalunya and the Basque regions so Gibraltar is probably lower on their list, but a handy 'lever' to make the UK aware of. A 'firming up' of the Gibraltar border would be tedious but not the subject of bomb threats and other activity. It would of course be very inconvenient as so many live in Spain and commute over the border.

MyNameIsArthur · 12/03/2019 11:55

PMK thank you!

Peregrina · 12/03/2019 11:55

saxatablesalt It also needs to added that the Good Friday Agreement is an international treaty - not just a gentleman's agreement between a couple of states.

It could be altered by mutual agreement, but one side deciding to rip it up would not bode well for that country's prospects when it came to other international treaties.

Furthermore, this problem was known about all along.

Mistigri · 12/03/2019 11:57

I'm feeling quite meh about all this now. I'm tired of all the re-hashing and the desperate way some MPs are trying to make last night mean something it bloody doesn't.

Yes me too. I'm almost at the "oh ffs just fuck off then" stage even though it's detrimental to me as a Brit in Europe.

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