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Brexit

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 10:01

May went to Strasbourg to improve the WA. She claimed to have won 'legally binding' assurances which mean we can't be trapped in the backstop.

Despite the claim of 'legally binding' it seems that this isn't true. It reduces the risk of being trapped but does not eliminate it.

The whole thing is just political theatre designed to give Brexiteers the opportunity to climb down and support May's deal. Whether that will happen remains to seen.

The right wing press has largely been supportive of May this morning but the ERG were scathing last night which doesn't bode well.

For May to pass the deal she needs the DUP to effectively trigger dominoes of support. If she fails to get that it's highly unlikely it will pass.

In order to pass the deal May needs an extra 116 votes compared to last time. This breaks down to roughly 10 DUP, 65 of the ERG, 4 Independents (Field/Hermon /Hopkins/Austin) and 40 Labour.

The Labour MPs won't go for it unless the numbers look tight and the DUP are on board.

We should get a feel for how things are going as the day goes on. I expect more negative comments on it to be expressed as the day goes on.

We might yet see some amendments and curveball thrown into the mix too. However none of those tabled so far this morning look likely to pass (Labour are yet to table anything)

The Cabinet meets at 9.30am. This will give us an idea of how it's played out there.

At 11.15am Barclay faces the Brexit select committee so some more scrutiny there.

The crucial moment is early afternoon before as May opens the debate on the Meaningful Vote. It is expected there will be an Urgent Question tabled to Cox the Attorney General to assess whether his legal advice that the backstop could be a trap, has changed. This is where thing will come into focus and we will get a good idea of whether the deal will pass or how heavy the defeat will be. How heavy it is, is important.

Word is that Cox said no to the validity of May’s 'legally binding assurances' last night and has been pretty much been sent away to 'think about it with a team of lawyers'. Cox has replied this is "Bollocks". But you do have to wonder if this is what May did in the Home Office with her ridiculous court cases and the A50 case. None of which went well for her in court in the end. However Cox did tell The Mail yesterday he would only change his legal advice if the risk of being trapped was 'eliminated' not merely reduced.

If its going badly a No10 damage limitation exercise will be in full swing by about 4pm.

If The Withdrawal Agreement fails by a small amount May might be able to try again. If it fails by a lot we really are into political chaos. May's position might be untenable if the Cabinet withdraw their support. If May stays that's not necessarily going to stave off even greater crisis.

Theresa May looks likely to go for an extension until 23rd May. The EU have more or less agreed to this. But this might be too short to get an alternative plan on the table. And May would be unlikely to be the person to do this anyway as it requires a huge uturn. The 23rd May date is crucial - if the UK doesn't make contingency plans to take part in European Elections its a cliff edge. A deadline of 23rd May is also too short for another referendum.

The only way we get a 2nd ref is to take the option of a longer extension which requires us to take part in European elections, and this is politically unpalatable to many Tories as it endangers Brexit completely.

This is what ERGers need to weigh up. Are they really committed to no deal. If they are not then the WA is perhaps the only way to stop no deal AND the possibility of no brexit.

However the chances of the legislation for European elections and a long extension getting through the Commons looks extremely unlikely too. But who knows where we will be come the end of April.

Thus if the WA fails then the chances of No Deal sky rocket, even if no deal is blocked by Parliament tomorrow. Unless those same MPs are prepared to vote for EP elections further down the line if need be. This might be the only way to truly block no deal. Has this dawned on Tory moderates? And that's what remain moderates and Labour MPs need to weigh up. I don't think the penny has dropped with many. Yet.

The trouble is that the WA problem is really with hardline ERG Tories not moderates nor Labour anyway.

Voting starts at 7pm.

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Thread gallery
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prettybird · 12/03/2019 13:34

It does seem convenient Hmm that the finger has been pointed at the IRA for the recent parcel bombs, especially as a couple were to Glasgow addresses. Sorry for the Wikipedia link but this entry about the Glasgow pub bombings (carried out by the UVF) mentions that they didn't escalate despite the horrible sectarianism we suffer from in the West of Scotlanf , there was a ban by the IRA on activity in Glasgow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgowpubbombings Confused

Going back to the collective description of Brexit lawyers as "a bawbag" Grin: it is particularly relevant as one of the other meanings for the word (in addition to scrotum Wink to be covered by a Codpiece Wink) is to describe a person who is full of hot air and an idiot Grin

Salmon tartan rug republic Wink

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 12/03/2019 13:36

if an overweight grey combover affectionado is your thing then he's perfect for you

Thanks for the warning - mental note, don’t google Cox WinkGrin

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 13:36

Afp news agency @afp
#BREAKING Nissan says to stop producing Infiniti cars in UK

My, what timing

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RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 13:37

So if the ERG and the DUP even just abstain then the WA doesn't pass.

nods solemnly

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DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 13:38

how on earth May can stay as PM.

At which point .... nothing changes. The Tories are welcome to knock themselves out (possibly while knocking one out Envy) choosing a new leader, but they will simply emerge into exactly the same spot, only no-deal will have happened, and they'll be picking those pieces up for a very long time.

The Tories really need a sacrificial leader - someone prepared to take the rap for the shitstorm, so that the next leader can be the Great White Saviour (deliberate use of words there, by the way).

(Goes away to read "I Claudius" again ....)

GeistohneGrenzen · 12/03/2019 13:38

pmk

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 13:40

Lewis Goodall @lewis_goodall
Charles Walker, Tory MP tells #bbcwato his colleagues voting against the deal tonight should do so in the knowledge that “it will precipitate a general election. We cannot go on like this. It might be that we finally get a Parliament than can govern.”

Well maybe we can finally get rid of Jezza then too... (looks for silver linings anywhere that can be found and fails miserably)

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RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 13:41

Tom Harwood @tomhfh
CCHQ denying the party is now preparing to fight European Elections....

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?
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DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 13:42

Charles Walker, Tory MP tells #bbcwato his colleagues voting against the deal tonight should do so in the knowledge that “it will precipitate a general election.

One of the routes to an extension. But given how long a GE would take to organise, the UK would be compelled to hold EU elections. Possibly on the same day Hmm ....

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 13:42

CCHQ denying the party is now preparing to fight European Elections....

Haven't the SNP and LibDems acted as if they are going ahead ?

TheNorthWestPawsage · 12/03/2019 13:45

Pmk

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 13:45

Parly @parlyapp
AG’s statement won’t be finished anytime soon - dozens of MPs still want to ask him a question

AG statement will be followed by the debate on the PM’s motion. The Speaker will announce at the start of the debate which amendments he has selected

Not sure if this delays the time of the vote or not.

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CordeliaEarhart · 12/03/2019 13:45

I guess now, we are just down to wondering how big the defeat will be and how on earth May can stay as PM.

How is this any different to the last time this was voted on?!

If DUP have announced they're against, SNP and lib dems are against, is May relying on labour to vote for the WA? And if so, won't she just pull it at the last minute like she did before Christmas?!

NameChangeNugget · 12/03/2019 13:46

I think GE on council elections day, in May seems the only way forward

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 13:47

DGR, if there is a general election at the same time as the EU elections, its possible that EP elections will need less time to legislate and organise...

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DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 13:48

won't she just pull it at the last minute like she did before Christmas?!

I believe that would put her in contempt or parliament (which doesn't seem to mean much) as she promised the house (thanks to Coopers demands) there would be a vote.

But failed vote today, failed vote tomorrow, failed vote next week makes no difference to the fact it's a failed vote, and no deal is still happening March 29th.

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 13:48

And if so, won't she just pull it at the last minute like she did before Christmas?!

Legally she can't.

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DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 13:49

DGR, if there is a general election at the same time as the EU elections, its possible that EP elections will need less time to legislate and organise...

I was alluding to the nuclear reaction of Brexiteers if EU elections were held on the same day as UK parliamentary elections ....

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 13:50

Legally she can't.

Is that the same "legally" which is supposed to prevent the Home Office trampling all over various court rulings. Or another one ?

Icantreachthepretzels · 12/03/2019 13:52

I guess now, we are just down to wondering how big the defeat will be and how on earth May can stay as PM.

If she didn't go last time then she won't go this time. They can't topple her. And there is always going to be somebody stupid enough to accept a cabinet position - no matter how many resign (and I'll believe that when I see it).

The obvious thing to do - following failure - is for TM to accept the Kyle amendment. That way she gets her W.A through - which is a small triumph for her. Then it goes to a P.V - if we vote for the W.A then that is a victory for her beyond her wildest imaginings and she will be carried back into the HoC on the shoulders of her cabinet - a hero. If we vote remain - she retires due to health grounds (and has a considerably better quality of life from here on out).

However - I have been saying that she needed to get a deal - any deal - and put it to the people in order to get it passed by the commons since long before the W.A reared its ugly head. It's the ultimate get out clause for her. She just won't take it - because she is not quite right in the head/ massively blinkered by her own xenophobia/looking forward to Philip's windfall following a crash out/ all of the above.

PMK

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 13:53

It's another Contempt of Parliament job. For which she could be sent to the Tower and be banned from Parliament by the Speaker. Or something. But yeah she's not too bothered by minor points like that is she?

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CordeliaEarhart · 12/03/2019 13:55

RTB, can we have a general election, council elections, european parliament elections AND a referendum all one the same day?! We could call it Democracy Day.

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 13:55

The Kyle problem is how can the ERG (plus DUP) be persuaded to recommend the public vote for something that they don't support ?

It would also require an extension closer to Frances preferred 21 months.

Ellie56 · 12/03/2019 13:56

I wonder what all this will look like in the history books in 100 years time!

I've wondered that too.Maybe schools will study the "Brexit Period" as part of the history syllabus. How depressing.

QueenMabby · 12/03/2019 13:57

Argh! .
PMK