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Brexit

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/03/2019 10:01

May went to Strasbourg to improve the WA. She claimed to have won 'legally binding' assurances which mean we can't be trapped in the backstop.

Despite the claim of 'legally binding' it seems that this isn't true. It reduces the risk of being trapped but does not eliminate it.

The whole thing is just political theatre designed to give Brexiteers the opportunity to climb down and support May's deal. Whether that will happen remains to seen.

The right wing press has largely been supportive of May this morning but the ERG were scathing last night which doesn't bode well.

For May to pass the deal she needs the DUP to effectively trigger dominoes of support. If she fails to get that it's highly unlikely it will pass.

In order to pass the deal May needs an extra 116 votes compared to last time. This breaks down to roughly 10 DUP, 65 of the ERG, 4 Independents (Field/Hermon /Hopkins/Austin) and 40 Labour.

The Labour MPs won't go for it unless the numbers look tight and the DUP are on board.

We should get a feel for how things are going as the day goes on. I expect more negative comments on it to be expressed as the day goes on.

We might yet see some amendments and curveball thrown into the mix too. However none of those tabled so far this morning look likely to pass (Labour are yet to table anything)

The Cabinet meets at 9.30am. This will give us an idea of how it's played out there.

At 11.15am Barclay faces the Brexit select committee so some more scrutiny there.

The crucial moment is early afternoon before as May opens the debate on the Meaningful Vote. It is expected there will be an Urgent Question tabled to Cox the Attorney General to assess whether his legal advice that the backstop could be a trap, has changed. This is where thing will come into focus and we will get a good idea of whether the deal will pass or how heavy the defeat will be. How heavy it is, is important.

Word is that Cox said no to the validity of May’s 'legally binding assurances' last night and has been pretty much been sent away to 'think about it with a team of lawyers'. Cox has replied this is "Bollocks". But you do have to wonder if this is what May did in the Home Office with her ridiculous court cases and the A50 case. None of which went well for her in court in the end. However Cox did tell The Mail yesterday he would only change his legal advice if the risk of being trapped was 'eliminated' not merely reduced.

If its going badly a No10 damage limitation exercise will be in full swing by about 4pm.

If The Withdrawal Agreement fails by a small amount May might be able to try again. If it fails by a lot we really are into political chaos. May's position might be untenable if the Cabinet withdraw their support. If May stays that's not necessarily going to stave off even greater crisis.

Theresa May looks likely to go for an extension until 23rd May. The EU have more or less agreed to this. But this might be too short to get an alternative plan on the table. And May would be unlikely to be the person to do this anyway as it requires a huge uturn. The 23rd May date is crucial - if the UK doesn't make contingency plans to take part in European Elections its a cliff edge. A deadline of 23rd May is also too short for another referendum.

The only way we get a 2nd ref is to take the option of a longer extension which requires us to take part in European elections, and this is politically unpalatable to many Tories as it endangers Brexit completely.

This is what ERGers need to weigh up. Are they really committed to no deal. If they are not then the WA is perhaps the only way to stop no deal AND the possibility of no brexit.

However the chances of the legislation for European elections and a long extension getting through the Commons looks extremely unlikely too. But who knows where we will be come the end of April.

Thus if the WA fails then the chances of No Deal sky rocket, even if no deal is blocked by Parliament tomorrow. Unless those same MPs are prepared to vote for EP elections further down the line if need be. This might be the only way to truly block no deal. Has this dawned on Tory moderates? And that's what remain moderates and Labour MPs need to weigh up. I don't think the penny has dropped with many. Yet.

The trouble is that the WA problem is really with hardline ERG Tories not moderates nor Labour anyway.

Voting starts at 7pm.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Hasenstein · 12/03/2019 10:47

PMK for today's thread!

ContinuityError · 12/03/2019 10:48

People’s Vote has been quick to post the legal opinion of two QCs:

Legal Opinion from Eminent Barristers at Brick Street Chambers. The interpretative declaration does not materially change the legal effect of the WA. The UK still cannot unilaterally leave the Backstop. Nothing has changed legally

Going to make it harder for Cox to spin otherwise.

Westminstenders: Are we nearly there yet?
OhYouBadBadKitten · 12/03/2019 10:50

"Attorney General Geoffrey Cox will make a Commons statement on his legal opinion on the Brexit deal at about 12:30 GMT." source bbc website

1tisILeClerc · 12/03/2019 10:54

PMK

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 10:55

Theresa May looks likely to go for an extension until 23rd May

On what basis would this be offered by the EU27 ? What would it materially change ?

And if getting an extension was so easy, (a) why hasn't it be done before and (b) why the race to get this vote sorted ?

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 11:03

Daniel Boffeyy@DanielBoffey*

Jean-Claude Juncker this morning:
“Allow me to tell you a little secret: I didn’t sleep much because of Mrs May last night”.

< poor bugger will probably have nightmares about her for years ! >

LonelyandTiredandLow · 12/03/2019 11:03

May may go in May then.
Grin Mayday Mayday

1tisILeClerc · 12/03/2019 11:07

{Jean-Claude Juncker this morning:
“Allow me to tell you a little secret: I didn’t sleep much because of Mrs May last night”.}

Maybe I am reading this comment incorrectly but I feel a bit queasy now and I am not quite sure why.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 11:08

Tom Chiverss@TomChivers*

Geoffrey Cox's rhetoric, a study.

3 October 2018: “Methinks I see in my mind a noble and puissant nation rousing herself like a strong man after sleep, and shaking her invincible locks."

< 🤮 >

March 12 2019:
Geoffrey Cox QC MP@Geoffrey_Cox
Replying to @jonsnowC4

Bollocks

< What has happened to his genitals the last few months, to make him so obsessed with them ? Hmm
Crutch rot couldn't happen to a nicer govt lawyer >

ContinuityError · 12/03/2019 11:12

Cox has published his advice - “legal risk remains unchanged” “no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol’s arrangements, save by agreement”

Sostenueto · 12/03/2019 11:14

Attorney Generals report out. Contradictory paragraphs 17 and 19. People will cherry pick what they want out of it. Cox is not only a codpiece but a w***. No honour then. Never trust a lawyer!

BollocksToBrexit · 12/03/2019 11:16

I've just read that the police have now confirmed that the letter bombs last week were sent by the IRA. This fucking brexit is destroying the country. It's needs to be knocked on the head now and never be spoken about again.

LonelyandTiredandLow · 12/03/2019 11:16

Light relief daily mash piece.

And this - have ERGgers realised a plot is afoot? Looks likely as they call for a delay to the vote.

TokyoSushi · 12/03/2019 11:17

So Cox basically says 'Nothing has Changed' - Shit

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 11:17

Cox: Legal Opinion on Joint Instrument and Unilateral Declaration concerning the Withdrawal Agreement

Paid by the word
but basically says less risk, but still a risk, of not being able to exit the backstop
He stretched his opinion for May as much as he could

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/legal-opinion-on-joint-instrument-and-unilateral-declaration-concerning-the-withdrawal-agreement

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/785188/1903122-LegallOpiniononnJointInstrumenttandUnilaterallDeclarationco..22.pdf

The Attorney General wrote to the Prime Minister setting out his legal opinion on the Joint Instrument and Unilateral Declaration concerning the Withdrawal Agreement.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 12/03/2019 11:18

Cox has published his advice - “legal risk remains unchanged” “no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol’s arrangements, save by agreement”

So the ERGs ladder for climbing down has effectively been removed. Oh crap it’s going to be no deal isn’t it?

Do excuse me while I tip up my Brexit stash.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 12/03/2019 11:19

Tip = top Blush (mustbkearn to check posts)

saxatablesalt · 12/03/2019 11:19

I have done extensive reading and I genuinely don't understand wtf the backstop even IS. Can anyone explain it?

Cherrypi · 12/03/2019 11:20

Discussion of May possibly resigning on five live this morning. Emma Barnett has been cracking on Brexit. An excellent broadcaster.

Sostenueto · 12/03/2019 11:22
DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 11:24

Many years ago, in a biography of Monty Python, there was a chapter concerning the production of "Life of Brian". The Pythons were very keen not to fall foul of any obscenity or blasphemy laws, so consulted several eminent barristers (John Mortimer being one).

However, at the end of the (expensive) process they had to face the face that a barristers advice is just that, and has fuck all bearing in a court of law. It's the legal equivalent of an election being the only opinion poll that counts.

(We'll put to one side the principle that a law should be written clearly enough so that a person knows before a course of action whether it's legal or not. UK obscenity laws are a tad vague on that point ....)

DGRossetti · 12/03/2019 11:25

Discussion of May possibly resigning on five live this morning

Ultimately changing nothing, Brexit-wise ....

LonelyandTiredandLow · 12/03/2019 11:25

ThereWillBeAdequateFood I read tip/top with an 'Allo 'Allo accent Grin.

Funny how the pound climbed when the ERGgers were placated and will now presumably drop (now that the ladder is gone) yet apparently Leavers say that is all about Corbyn becoming PM and nothing to do with Brexit or what the world thinks of No Deal Hmm.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2019 11:25

If the backstop is to actually be a functioning backstop, not an ornament,
then it would have to be activated at the end of transition if there is no deal or transition extension
and remain activated until a deal is found

imo, both sides would agree at that point to modify the WA and allow further extensions of transition, to avoid invoking the backstop

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney · 12/03/2019 11:27

Sax The U.K. ‘s only land border is between ni and the ROI. If we Brexit we will want to make trade deals around the world including countries who do not have the same regulatory checks as EU. Also different tariff regimes may apply. To stop the U.K. being able to exploit this there needs to be an agreement which stops a leaky border. Now it maybe that we agree trade deals with the EU and others that don’t exploit it. Or we may not be able to. In that case, NI stays in CU whilst the rest of us have different rules thus splitting up the U.K.. oh and Scotland have said if NI can stay in CU why can’t they?

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