Westminstenders: Stuck in the Middle With TIGGERS

[RedToothBrush]

Well I don't know how we got here tonight.
We've got the feeling that something ain't right.
We're so scared as we leave the EU
And we're wondering how we'll get out of this stew

Antisemites to the left of me!
Dog Whistles to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

'Cause I'm stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.
And I'm wondering what it is we should do.
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face.
Losing control and running all over the place.

Clowns to the left of me!
Jokers to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

When you started off with rights
And you're starting to wonder if thats for life.
And all the politicians come crawling
Slap you on the back and say
Please . . .
Please . . .
Vote Leave and back EU Withdrawal

But we see it makes no sense at all.

Best to keep your money offshore
Than to visit the bookstore

Deniers to the left of me!
Islamaphobes to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle with you.

Its finally happened. FINALLY.

MPs have seen that their leaders have lost the plot and are hell bent on destruction and politicial ideology ahead of practicality and will justify the unjustifable in the face of democracy and they have jumped ship.

Enter stage left and stage right: The TIGGERS - members of The Independent Group.

Will there be more. Hard to say no. It seems almost certain there will be more.

Will it make a difference? Difficult to call, but these MPs would be driven out sooner or later. Such is our accelerating politicial polarisation and narrowing of views. This is their last stand. They have nothing left to lose on a personal level.

Whether you agree with the TIGGERS or still look to the other parties for policy, I do think that the emergence of the TIGGERS marks a feeling of optimism and much needed hope for many many Remainers / Moderates, even if it ultimately does fizzle out.

A reflection from 2017: People voted for Corbyn because they were looking for Hope. When he's failed to deliver that, its led to disillusionment and he can not pull the same trick again at a future GE. This makes that doubly so. People are STILL very much looking for that hope. If Brexit does go tits up in a big fashion, then what happens? To what direction do people look? I'm sure there will be the bitterest of recriminations, but... hope is a big deal. We need something...

Tick tick tick. 37 days til Brexit.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation

I don't agree that any group that has been persecuted should get a free pass forever

The problem here, is that Jewish history of persecution pretty much has gone on forever though.

It didn't start in the 1930s.

It happened in the 1930s BECAUSE of that long history being legitimised on an industrial scale.

I don't think Luiciana Berger has been over sensitive. What I have seen directed at her and what has been openly said on twitter by clearly Labour members including councillors, groups and MPs has been overtly, deliberately and obviously anti semitic.

Please don't peddle the excuse of oversensitivity. It just enables more of the same shit.

We are going to Northumberland.

It all feels a bit Neville shute...

My MP is simultaneously a supporter of Palestine (co-founder of the SNP Friends of Palestine group) and with friends of Israel groupings. (His constituency has the 2nd largest population of Jews in Scotland - as well as the largest? a large population of Muslims ). The two are not incompatible: as has been said, you can criticise the activities of the Israeli government and the IDF and their activities in Gaza without hating Jews and Israelis in general.

As Red says, there seems an inability to separate Netenyahu with the state of Israel and Jews worldwide - in a way that we don't blame Russians for the nefarious activities of Putin and his secret forces

Should all the residents of the UK be blamed for the clusterfuck of Brexit? Or bringing religion in to it, the Church of England because May is convinced that "her" God is guiding her?

Caveat: I am not, and never have been, religious, so can't even start to understand the motivations of those that believe in God(s), whatever their faith, although I do recognise that some believers are good and some are bad (not that I see any relation in that to their faith)

BCF Corbyn may be all you say but imho May was never a remainer, she said little until she mistakenly thought remain would win, then popped up (like the submarine DC called her) and supported Remain - she has proven time and again that she is very comfortable lying - again a trait of the stupid.

To put party before country maybe immoral but it is also extremely short sighted - Brexit will haunt the Tories for decades to come, if May cannot see that, then yes she is very stupid.

Oh and anyone who thinks God is guiding them is way beyond stupid.

Look, i'm no longer a fan of JC but had he won the 2017 GE, i strongly suspect A50 would have been revoked by now.

'The elephant trap we can not escape'. Once extended, we might never leave is the new mantra from the Telegraph

May alleged as complicit in a cover up at GCHQ

I wasn't specifically referring to Luciana Berger either. The Labour party stands accused of being anti-semitic as a whole. Some of that - some of it - is simply not true.

The history and present of the Middle East encompasses many different groups of peoples and many different religions, as did that of Europe before Christianity came along. Jews are not the only group there, or anywhere else, to face sporadic persecution.

Labour on the front of the Indy and observer.

Thanks for the thought, Welby, but I rather fear that we will need rather more than five days of prayer to ease us through a no-deal Brexit next month

Brigid Fowler @ brigid_fowler
#WithdrawalAgreement Bill-watchers - in case you also missed it, this below from Chris Heaton Harris seemed noteworthy when I caught up with today's #weekinwestminster with @tnewtondunn. All signs pointing to gov intending to try to get Bill thru' v. quickly in (late) March

@DangermousesSidekick You and I must have learnt different history if you think persecution of the Jews was 'sporadic'.

"Sporadic persecution "? Laugh my fucking arse off at that bit of genius.

Harry Cole @mrharrycole
In 2017 the boss of GCHQ quit in cloud of mystery. Read tomorrow how he had given character reference for paedophile priest who went on to reoffend - and his career was ended by sister intelligence agency’s probe. The stuff of novels but Theresa May knew and let him go quietly...

This is one of those stories where you
a) wonder about the timing
b) wonder if its aimed at GCHQ or at creating a scandal around May herself
c) wonder a hell of a lot about the source of it

A paedophile story involving the PM? Its the one subject which it so toxic that ordinary PR isn't sufficient to kill off the story.

It's just... I'm cynical. And jaded.

And yes it's a feast for conspiracy theorists, which again doesn't help shift my questions.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism

"sporadic persecution"

Sure it's Wikipedia. But I'm sure this all appears in books predating the internet too.

Daily fail link to the GCHQ story...

I'd say Boris leaked it to slowly undermine May for leadership bid (he's mentioned in it and detailed but not that he in particular knew what was going on ). Also a bit about Chinese firm just before Hammond meets them? Plus it gets NI and GFA attention too; maybe used as a negative spin on the agreement itself? Suspicious.

Surely part of the reason some Jewish people thought they could stay and survive Hitler was because they had been through so many pogroms before.

Of course King Edward the First expelled all Jews from England in the thirteenth century, and then very conveniently didn't have to pay back the money he'd borrowed from them.

Have you seen new film 'the kid who would be king'. Brexit metaphors throughout. Country in a terrible state and no leaders. Up pops our young heroes to save the country. And Patrick Stewart (Jean-luc Picard) himself as Merlin. A little cheer for the soul. And it is very funny :)

Lonely, its got it all hasn't it?! It's like the perfect story for the moment isn't it? You missed the fact he was Catholic off too.

I just read it and go wtf on many levels. Whether that be at face value or otherwise.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3516178-Westminstenders-The-Rebellion?watched=1
New thread time!

Gonna get through a few this week...

jas I disagree completely with your views on May & Corbyn re Brexit
You need only to compare their records on Europe:

Corbyn was consistently making anti-EU / EEC speeches in the early 1980s right through until 2010
There is real venom & hatred in his language towards the EU, because he regards it as a capitalist club, thwarting the kind of radical socialst change he wants

During the referendum campaign, he and his clique, e.g. Milne, deliberately obstructed the Labour remain campaign
Right after the vote, he was demanding immediate A50, trying to bundle the Tories early on into an irrevocable decision to Brexit.

At every HoC vote, he has blocked the overwhelmingly Remain PLP from hindering Brexit or No Deal.
imo, no chance he would have Revoked A50 if he had become PM, not would he in the future.

He regards the Tory referendum and then A50 invocation as a golden opportunity to achieve what he wants - Brexit - while being able to blame the Tories for the consequences

May (like Thatcher) has never liked the EU, but regarded it as necessary for economic reasons.
In her career in the many years before the referendum, she didn't make speeches against it; she was indifferent.

During the ref, her speeches showed she was one of the few Tories who actually understood some of the consequences for the economy and for NI

oh and it's ridiculous to say that lying is "a trait of the stupid"
It is a human characteristic
Clever people lie just as much - they are just usually better at it

Anyone claiming persecution of the Jews was "sporadic" is either very ignorant of history, or has a serious agenda in such minimising

That's straight out of the - very similar - playbooks of the anti-semitic left and the far right,
the people like e.g. Clifford Irving and some of Corbyn's chums too.

The Jews have suffered far longer & sustained persecution than any other racial / religious group:

Scapegoating them goes back as far as the early days of Christianity

In spite of Jesus being a Jew, the Jews were demonised for his crucifixion - rather than the Romans who were actually in charge and carried it out.

They suffered many centuries of pogroms, massacres, being burned alive, expulsions throughout Europe, including England

Then the Holocaust, in which 6 million were exterminated in a horribly industrialised, dehumanised process of slavery, sadistic experiments and murder

red I'm very surprised the paedophile story was leaked
The establishment almost always cover up very efficiently for each other

I suspect that once again it is Brexit making them abandon all the constraints that would normally apply to taking advantage of such knowledge

susan Many Jews stayed in their countries because they they thought pogroms couldn't happen to them in the supposedly modern and enlightened 20th century

They thought they got on well with their neighbours and felt part of their communities

In countries outside Germany, they didn't expect their own countries to be conquered, particullarly not at the speed it happened
Uprooting their families and businesses would be as daunting then as it would be for people now
They expected more warning, then when it happened, there were already efficient measures to prevent many escaping

We've seen, on a much smaller scale, with Brexit that most people will close their eyes to a potential catastrophe,
make excuses that politicians don't really mean what they say
and that the government won't let anything really bad happen.

Too true bigchoc.

I quite often wonder what Europe would be like now if the holocaust hadn't happened. The Jewish community would have influenced our culture in so many ways. It's not just the horrendous loss of life and all those poor individual families and people. We all lost out.

Not that I'm trying to say us losing out culturally is in any way on a par with what the Jewish community went through and lost, obviously.

Hopefully you understand what I mean.