Westminstenders: Stuck in the Middle With TIGGERS

[RedToothBrush]

Well I don't know how we got here tonight.
We've got the feeling that something ain't right.
We're so scared as we leave the EU
And we're wondering how we'll get out of this stew

Antisemites to the left of me!
Dog Whistles to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

'Cause I'm stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.
And I'm wondering what it is we should do.
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face.
Losing control and running all over the place.

Clowns to the left of me!
Jokers to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

When you started off with rights
And you're starting to wonder if thats for life.
And all the politicians come crawling
Slap you on the back and say
Please . . .
Please . . .
Vote Leave and back EU Withdrawal

But we see it makes no sense at all.

Best to keep your money offshore
Than to visit the bookstore

Deniers to the left of me!
Islamaphobes to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle with you.

Its finally happened. FINALLY.

MPs have seen that their leaders have lost the plot and are hell bent on destruction and politicial ideology ahead of practicality and will justify the unjustifable in the face of democracy and they have jumped ship.

Enter stage left and stage right: The TIGGERS - members of The Independent Group.

Will there be more. Hard to say no. It seems almost certain there will be more.

Will it make a difference? Difficult to call, but these MPs would be driven out sooner or later. Such is our accelerating politicial polarisation and narrowing of views. This is their last stand. They have nothing left to lose on a personal level.

Whether you agree with the TIGGERS or still look to the other parties for policy, I do think that the emergence of the TIGGERS marks a feeling of optimism and much needed hope for many many Remainers / Moderates, even if it ultimately does fizzle out.

A reflection from 2017: People voted for Corbyn because they were looking for Hope. When he's failed to deliver that, its led to disillusionment and he can not pull the same trick again at a future GE. This makes that doubly so. People are STILL very much looking for that hope. If Brexit does go tits up in a big fashion, then what happens? To what direction do people look? I'm sure there will be the bitterest of recriminations, but... hope is a big deal. We need something...

Tick tick tick. 37 days til Brexit.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation

The vindictive tribal dog eat dog is so blerdy dumb
There's rabies on all sides. Where's the flamin' vaccines?? Oh yes, stuck in the lorry queue.

jas Corbyn is exceptionally stupid even for an MP and also very lazy intellectually
An E-grade student dropout, despite being given considerable educational advantage

He is a far more shambolic leader than Michael Foot ever was.
Under him, the formerly powerful Labour machine is cracking at the seams.

re brexit:
He is a lifelong ideological Brexiter, as shown by his past speeches from the 1980s to at least 2010
He wants Brexit, but he wants May to get the blame for it happening

May's speeches before the ref - now publiicisd by "led by donkeys" ! - show she was well aware of the problems & consequences of Brexit.
It's just she puts party before country
That's immoral, not stupid

Corbyn is both immoral - over anit-semitism & misogynyst bullying - and stupid

Back in the early 80s, when I was doing a Post-Doctoral research fellowship,
an Israeli professor came to our uni for a few months and shared our office.

All my professors from my BSC, MSc or PhD courses just imparted scientific knowledge
and I can hardly remember any of them

However, those few months sharing with the Israeli professor made a lifelong impression on me
He was a Holocaust survivor, who was forced to work as a starving slave;
he showed us the number branded on his arm
His close family didn't survive

That industrialised genocide was only the last horror in 2 millenia of persecution, pogroms, mass murders.
The Jewish people need their own country as a safe refuge, because being citizens of other countries certainly wasn't enough to save them over the centuries

The IHRA (International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance) has an 11-point definition of anti-semitism
Last July, Labour's NEC voted against 4 of these:

.Accusing Jewish people of being more loyal to Israel than their home country;
.Claiming that Israel’s existence as a state is a racist endeavour;
.Requiring higher standards of behaviour from Israel than other nations;
.Comparing contemporary Israeli policies to those of the Nazis.

These have always been sticking points for the anti-semitic / pro-Palestinian section of the left

The NEC, after massive criticism, finally voted to accept all 11 points
.... but Corbyn still kept trying to weaken this with an extensive qualifying statement to the definition.

HazardGhost - I would imagine and hope that Sarah Wollestone would be the health lead (if the Tiggers do indeed start to organise themselves in a traditional party structure, dividing policy issues between them). She's a former GP, so well qualified to talk about the issues

Meanwhile, in other global developments, Maduro has just cut off diplomatic relations with Colombia and is expelling diplomats. People have died at the border, as humanitarian aid workers try to get supplies into Venezuela. And I've not heard a peep of condemnation from Corbyn, McDonnell etc about the situation there

OK. So nothing Israel ever does must be criticised in any way shape or form? Can women as an oft-persecuted group have that kind of protection please?

If you think fighting antisemism means supporting every policy of the Israeli government, you are pretty ignorant, Frankly

Dangermouse
So nothing Israel ever does must be criticised in any way shape or form?
Nobody has said that that I've seen
The IDF behaves in a manner that is frequently indefensible.
The Israeli government allows illegal settlements in contravention of UN resolutions by the bucket load.
They way that the Israeli government treats Gaza is indefensible
BUT
Most Jews the world over question some of the actions of the government of that country.
Many Jews within Israel have massive issues with the activities of the IDF
therefore
Jews are not the problem
a few IDF commanders and their political masters are the problem

so demonising British Jewish MPs is just nasty and petty

Olennas I haven't heard whether Corbyn condemns Maduro for banning humanitarian aid from coming into Venezuela
Poorer people have insufficient food & meds, but Maduro's ideology is to let the plebs die rather than let in aid and hence admit his failure

Corbyn supports Maduro in denying that people are hungry

Difficult to know sometimes if Corbyn is just exceedingly dim / believes ideology over facts / exceedingly ruthless

There's room for a lot of criticism of Israel,
without breaking any of the 11 points in the IHRA definition of anti-semitism
or demonising and bullying people who disagree with your views.

I certainly don't see that is the case. I think if you are critical you have to be crystal clear on your point, rather than generalisations.

I think this is a general problem with criticism of sensitive subjects and people tend to be far too blunt. Not just Israel. But historically this generalisation is particularly important with reference to Jewish history.

There is a wide range of political opinions within Israel. And I rarely here this contextualised in this manner.

For example we criticise Trump as a leader as an individual who represents a school of thought in the US, but Benjamin Netanyahu is not criticised in the same way in an individual manner or as representative of a particular party. Criticism tends simply to be levelled as 'Israel' as a monolithic school of thought.

Yes people do criticise the US as a country in the singular in terms of capitalistic ideology but this does not carry the dual issue of religion and history in the same way. And its lazy anyway.

Should Israel exist? That's another question which owes more to the politics of the past of others, not modern day Israel itself.

My feeling is it exists and that's it. It now can not be erased. Because of the implications of that. That doesn't mean I think Palestine should just suck it up or be ignored. There are very obvious human rights violations going on, and more needs to be done to reflect that and to make Palestine an officially recognised state.

This is not a hard thing to say without using racist tropes.

Netanyahu’s policies are extremist and authoritarian in nature and his government commits human rights violations against Palestinians. There are worrying signs of corruption which mirror current international political scandals.

Being sensitive to history, rights, race and religion should be what the left is good at. Because if you want to defend those things you need to understand them. If you can't, you can't defend them.

And that just says everything to me about Corbyn's Labour Party.

It doesn't truly believe in those things nor want to seek to uphold them.

I think there are individuals in office in Labour who are clearly aware of this and don't care. Indeed they dodge this by saying certain things by implication and through their timing and context which allows them to be denied. The meaning and intent is bloody obvious as anti-semitism and I find this particular type of attack one of the most offensive and nasty (eg Young Labour with their 'Palenstine lives' tweet in response to Luiciana Berger's resignation).

Let's face it though. In 2019 people don't want to do complicated politics. They don't want to do explicitly well worded comment.

They want twitter politics in the language and style of Trump. Deliberately dumbed down and offensive. Precisely because its lazy.

I always feel a bit 'people who live in glass houses' when those who live in the UK point the finger at other countries.

In my youth, Israel had Golda Meir, kibbutzes and socialism
then they chose the godawful Sharon and Begin
but how the hell did they elect Netanyahu, who flirts with the US far right

Are we really in that much of a bubble in this little corner of mumsnet? I've just seen a travel thread about all holidays people have booked this year, and no-one appears to have even considered that Brexit may affect their plans?

I got caught up in existential angst about peak oil a few years ago, and I'm worried that I'm doing the same thing again with Brexit...

We've finally booked a holiday in July...in the UK.

If brexshit doesn't run everything then 2 more trips to Europe by October 🤞

In my youth, Israel had Golda Meir, kibbutzes and socialism

My sister spent 6 months on a kibbutz in Israel in her youth. Had an amazing time by all accounts. Came back home with a very nice American boy in tow.

I know where I want to go at Easter
but am not booking it yet

I have an idea for the summer
but am not booking it yet

Mistigri Sat 23-Feb-19 15:56:20

I suppose the main virtue of Hunt and Williamson (and Javid and BoJo) is that they collectively make a leadership competition less likely on the unlikely grounds that May is head and shoulders above them all.

In any other party and in any other country I might agree.

But let's not forget that Theresa May is Prime Minister

The UK is a place where literally anything could happen in politics, and in which a huge number of people cannot see themselves as others see them.

Boris Johnson enjoys the admiration of a lot of people who really should know better, and they probably would anywhere else. Jeremy Hunt received the best education money could buy in the UK* and his - let's call it 'vagueness' - when it comes to geographical, geopolitical and political detail and even the country his own wife comes from is considered only right and proper and even admirable in certain quarters because in the minds of some, nothing really matters if it's somewhere forrin.

Both are the epitome of the Hurray Henry.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hunt#Early_life_and_education
Early life and education

Jeremy Hunt was born in Lambeth Hospital, Kennington,[4] the eldest son of Admiral Sir Nicholas Hunt,[5] who was then a Commander in the Royal Navy assigned to work for the Director of Naval Plans inside the recently created Ministry of Defence,[6] and his wife Meriel Eve née Givan (now Lady Hunt), daughter of Major Henry Cooke Givan.[7] Hunt is a descendant of Streynsham Master, a pioneer of the East India Company.[8]

Hunt was raised in Shere, Surrey, near the constituency that he represents in Parliament.[9] He is a distant relation of Elizabeth II and Oswald Mosley.[10]

Hunt was educated at Charterhouse School where he was Head Boy.[5] He then studied Philosophy, Politics, and Economics at Magdalen College, Oxford, and graduated with a first class honours Bachelor of Arts (BA) degree. He became involved in Conservative politics while at university, where David Cameron and Boris Johnson were contemporaries.[11] He was active in the Oxford University Conservative Association (OUCA), and was elected to serve as President in 1987.[11]

We have just come home from Berlin. We have had such a great time. DS and I felt at home straight away, even DH said he could live there. It just had a general Mittel European feeling. We are already missing Europe.

We need to book Hungary for Easter, but it is too much money to risk.

If you think fighting antisemism means supporting every policy of the Israeli government, you are pretty ignorant, Frankly

My point was that some of the comments labelled as anti semitic are critiques of Israel, and further, sometimes it is initially the Jews who take offence on behalf of Israel, not that they are thrown at individual Jews. He started it / she started it stuff. Racism and antisemitism exist. So does extreme over-sensitivity. If you have never been in a situation where you have enforced a normal rule and had someone turn round and claim that it was because they were black, I have. I don't agree that any group that has been persecuted should get a free pass forever. This has dragged on into a bigger argument than I wanted however.

Lat summer, thinking things would be sorted by now, I booked a holiday in Italy for the end of April this year. The travel agent assures me flights will be ok (I hope so). I've renewed my passport, have travel insurance and I had some euros left from a holiday in 2016. They were worth £100 then, they're now worth over £120. I wish I'd had 1000 euros. Or 10,000... Meanwhile, I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hoping all will be well.

It's reassuring I'm not the only one holding off on travel plans at least. I will stop worrying about my worrying!

I've not booked anything this year either. Lots of people I know have booked for April and August though, despite worrying that sterling will crash .

I was just pondering how US companies such as MacDonalds must be feeling about potentially putting prices up due to the food tariffs. It made me wonder if those secret meetings Fox is having is somehow linking meat from US to those firms in particular so that there is less knock-on effect on profit. I strongly suspect the EU is wondering whether whatever is agreed has already jeopardised our ability to trade with them? If EU won't agree to trade because we aren't being transparent they will look like the baddies.

frumpety - I know what you mean. One of the side-effects of Brexit is that I cannot tease my American friends about their barmy politics any longer

BUT (and this follows on from my earlier point about Corbyn's spinelessness over Maduro), taken to its logical conclusion, being worried about speaking out on issues in other countries because our own house isn't really in order leads to Corbyn's position - as stated just a few weeks ago - that Venezuela's problems are a matter for Venezuela.

I can't agree that when a country is suffering a humanitarian crisis, it is right for the rest of the world to sit back and let the general population suffer because of the actions of the political leadership. It's like watching a family where you know the dad is regularly beating and raping his wife, drinks away the groceries money and his children are starving and wearing rags, because you don't want to intervene in a private, domestic matter