Westminstenders: Stuck in the Middle With TIGGERS

[RedToothBrush]

Well I don't know how we got here tonight.
We've got the feeling that something ain't right.
We're so scared as we leave the EU
And we're wondering how we'll get out of this stew

Antisemites to the left of me!
Dog Whistles to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

'Cause I'm stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.
And I'm wondering what it is we should do.
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face.
Losing control and running all over the place.

Clowns to the left of me!
Jokers to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

When you started off with rights
And you're starting to wonder if thats for life.
And all the politicians come crawling
Slap you on the back and say
Please . . .
Please . . .
Vote Leave and back EU Withdrawal

But we see it makes no sense at all.

Best to keep your money offshore
Than to visit the bookstore

Deniers to the left of me!
Islamaphobes to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle with you.

Its finally happened. FINALLY.

MPs have seen that their leaders have lost the plot and are hell bent on destruction and politicial ideology ahead of practicality and will justify the unjustifable in the face of democracy and they have jumped ship.

Enter stage left and stage right: The TIGGERS - members of The Independent Group.

Will there be more. Hard to say no. It seems almost certain there will be more.

Will it make a difference? Difficult to call, but these MPs would be driven out sooner or later. Such is our accelerating politicial polarisation and narrowing of views. This is their last stand. They have nothing left to lose on a personal level.

Whether you agree with the TIGGERS or still look to the other parties for policy, I do think that the emergence of the TIGGERS marks a feeling of optimism and much needed hope for many many Remainers / Moderates, even if it ultimately does fizzle out.

A reflection from 2017: People voted for Corbyn because they were looking for Hope. When he's failed to deliver that, its led to disillusionment and he can not pull the same trick again at a future GE. This makes that doubly so. People are STILL very much looking for that hope. If Brexit does go tits up in a big fashion, then what happens? To what direction do people look? I'm sure there will be the bitterest of recriminations, but... hope is a big deal. We need something...

Tick tick tick. 37 days til Brexit.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation

Is it really necessary to use the word MENTAL in capital letters to describe people you don't like? Shouting terms that are hugely derogatory to people with mental health issues when talking about other people's prejudice is just a bit off.

Like Angela Smith using the words "funny tinge" while saying she left the labour party due to racism.

I tend to keep very quiet about Israel nowadays because people conflate strongly denouncing how they treat Palestine with anti-Semitism. It's obviously done deliberately to muddy the waters.

I'm getting quite confused by a friend who is Jewish and a strong Corbyn supporter who is now strongly attacking the 7 Labour defectors.

Well as a sufferer of ill mental health myself, Bigly, I don't have a problem with or being used in this context. Apologies for any offence caused.

I was simply being honest.

(This is why I lurk btw. The expressions that I've found people use in real life are simply not ok here, and I will invariably offend somebody. Enjoy your chat.)

The Tiggerd have said they would support Theresa May if there was a vote of no confidence. Not sure this is the way to attract disgruntled Labour voters.

Tiggers not Tiggerd !

Is to be 'Tiggered' some kind of deviant practice?

Made the mistake of reading that ghastly and grotesque
Giles Fraser article from upthread. [shudders]

Good reply here eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2019/02/family-values-and-brexit-reply-to-giles.html

Well that's the thing about Independants, they aren't party clones, they just gain the freedom to make up their own mind.

I assumed you didn't have a problem with it as otherwise you wouldn't have used it.

And this the issue isn't it. As someone with a complex and chronic mental health condition I find the casual use of terms derogatory to those with mental health conditions as offencive as the use of terms derogatory to those with physical health issues. Is my opinion worth more than your view that this is not offensive at all.

One persons criticism of Israel policy is another person's anti-Semitism. Who is the arbitrator of what constitutes prejudice and offence?

There's criticising Israeli policies. Which people in Israel do - what with it being a Parliamentary democracy. And there's criticising the existence of Israel. Which is anti-Zionism. Which is also anti Semitic because it seeks the destruction of Israel.
Just a gentle reminder that our head of state is Head of the Church of England. So it's not that weird to have a religion at the heart of a state.

I've never claimed to be the arbiter of what constitutes prejudice and offence. I was simply trying to put my side across about what I saw as a bullying culture within the Labour Party, as a reason for why the tiggers left.

I've apologised to you already. I'll use the term more carefully from now on. I've asked MN to delete the post and I won't participate again.

Bigly I have a friend who found the shop 'Sanity' deeply offensive for the same reasons. She made me see something that a lot of people gloss over (we were teens when she developed manic depressive schizophrenia) and most people don't think about. I don't think offence was intended here

FWIW I feel the same about some Israeli policy - I think there can be a conflation between that and anti-semetic views which isn't always there. In the same way we criticise our own govt on this thread but (contrary to what some leavers think) we are not "traitors".

In Brexit news - do we think these berks understand that "delay" needs EU approval or are they going to force No Deal?

plonky shame your post might be removed, I found it very interesting.
It's hard to think of a term to describe a group of hard line activists that isn't going to offend someone. I also have longstanding mental health issues but I think that using "mental" to describe Momentums behaviour is reasonable. Ymmv.

Please continue to contribute plonkysaurus - I enjoy your posts (infrequent though they are) as they are thoughtful and considered - and far from being "less knowledgeable", enhanced our understanding.

Your experiences and opinions are no less valuable than the rest of ours

Just a gentle reminder that our head of state is Head of the Church of England. So it's not that weird to have a religion at the heart of a state.

I don't think anyone ever suggested it was weird. Did they?

I'm sorry that I have offended you with my offence plonky. It seems that sometimes we are very quick to say how offensive we find other people's views but not so keen to have the discussion about our own.

For what it's worth my second post above was simply a discussion and not ignoring your apology or seeking to have a go at you. The question of what constitutes offensive views and how that is decided is an important and complicated one. I don't necessarily believe my view should trump yours. Maybe we should all accept that sometimes people will say something we find uncomfortable and that's life? I don't know, really I don't.

There is clearly a huge difference between threatening and bullying behaviour and using a word in a way I find unpleasant. There are degrees. But somewhere in the middle there is a huge fuzzy area and I don't know how we deal with that in a way that allows discussion and compromise and opposing views to be heard.

plonky We sometimes have to learn as we get older that some common expressions are no longer used in polite conversation, but it shouldn't mean being afraid to post here again

Please don't feel you have to stop posting, especially when you wanted to post against bullying

Also, it was wrong of me not to say that I do agree with much of what your post said plonky.

Well, peace and goodwill to all is all I have to say. Trouble is we all have our triggers and being as we are all different it can be an absolute nightmare to try not to upset someone. But I suppose that's what makes us human. We are not robots after all.

Morning

In an effort to stop derailing the thread (sorry guys) here is a link to a twitter thread from Preston about Rudd, Gauke and Clarke pushing May to take no deal off the table. I'm sorry I can't copy it over as my phone just doesn't want to copy tweets right now, but here is a link. Could be paving the way did some more Tiggers coming.

twitter.com/Peston/status/1099236388724244481?s=19

Here's a guardian piece on the same subject...

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/23/brexit-rudd-clark-and-gauke-should-resign-says-andrew-bridgen

What gets me is we keep having these little morsels of hope thrown at us by the media and before we can grab them they are took away again! On channel 4 radio this morning they were discussing Wednesday next week as THE day of reckoning. Some were saying TM will try for more time again promising the house a vote mid march if she cannot get further movement on deal providing they don't vote for cross party amendment. This will piss ERG off and allow her to kick the ball further down the road. Some say that next week is the last date that will get things through in time for the 29th March. Rud et al will be too late to do anything unless they actually do resign next week and meanwhile JC had better start pushing for PV or they will lose at least 30 next week though everybody seeing if they come up with anything in the meanwhile. But ontheotherhand absolutely nothing will happen next week bar further delay and no progress.

Does anyone know the numbers of Labour MPs who don't support a PV and whether they would resign if Corbyn came out for one ?

More warnings... We can't say we've not been warned a thousand times:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/23/uk-food-imports-from-eu-face-9bn-tariff-bill-under-no-deal-brexit