Westminstenders: Stuck in the Middle With TIGGERS

[RedToothBrush]

Well I don't know how we got here tonight.
We've got the feeling that something ain't right.
We're so scared as we leave the EU
And we're wondering how we'll get out of this stew

Antisemites to the left of me!
Dog Whistles to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

'Cause I'm stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.
And I'm wondering what it is we should do.
It's so hard to keep this smile from my face.
Losing control and running all over the place.

Clowns to the left of me!
Jokers to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle whilst we leave the EU.

When you started off with rights
And you're starting to wonder if thats for life.
And all the politicians come crawling
Slap you on the back and say
Please . . .
Please . . .
Vote Leave and back EU Withdrawal

But we see it makes no sense at all.

Best to keep your money offshore
Than to visit the bookstore

Deniers to the left of me!
Islamaphobes to the right!
Here I am stuck in the middle with you.

Its finally happened. FINALLY.

MPs have seen that their leaders have lost the plot and are hell bent on destruction and politicial ideology ahead of practicality and will justify the unjustifable in the face of democracy and they have jumped ship.

Enter stage left and stage right: The TIGGERS - members of The Independent Group.

Will there be more. Hard to say no. It seems almost certain there will be more.

Will it make a difference? Difficult to call, but these MPs would be driven out sooner or later. Such is our accelerating politicial polarisation and narrowing of views. This is their last stand. They have nothing left to lose on a personal level.

Whether you agree with the TIGGERS or still look to the other parties for policy, I do think that the emergence of the TIGGERS marks a feeling of optimism and much needed hope for many many Remainers / Moderates, even if it ultimately does fizzle out.

A reflection from 2017: People voted for Corbyn because they were looking for Hope. When he's failed to deliver that, its led to disillusionment and he can not pull the same trick again at a future GE. This makes that doubly so. People are STILL very much looking for that hope. If Brexit does go tits up in a big fashion, then what happens? To what direction do people look? I'm sure there will be the bitterest of recriminations, but... hope is a big deal. We need something...

Tick tick tick. 37 days til Brexit.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation

One of dads cousins (DBros godfather actually) stood as a lega nord councillor a few years back
He's always seemed a really nice man though, just not that bright. He's happily gone to the pub with my Asian DH.
Dad's other cousin sensibly stood as a Christian Democrat councillor and all the relatives voted for her!

I know. It is so depressing.

I wish the middle ground people on both sides would just get up and de-camp. Or do something.

We need more MPs to stand up and say enough. The Phillip Lees and the Justine Greenings of the world need to put their money where their mouths are right now not whenever we leave with no deal. Spot on Mother.

I was talking to someone in the Tory party this week - has close links with our hard line Brexiteer MP. They tried to tell me how well Norway was doing. Don't they get it?! Their compatriot is campaigning for crashing out and they think we can magically have a Norway deal. Argh!!!

Since my early teens, I have insisted on sticking to the letter of the law wrt legal / human rights for many who committed horrific crimes - in the UK - for which they were demonised by the media:

IRA terrorists - and the many convicted innocent Irish people -
paedophile murderers like the latest case of the 16-year old criminal in Bute,
suspects in Islamic bombings in the UK
...and Uk politicans who may be working for foreign powers against our country

However, I've never wanted lower sentences for them on the grounds of abusive childhoods, or terrorist / criminal grooming-
In the case of the IRA, their terrorists came from a community oppressed and subjected to serious human rights violation by British forces:
they were certainly groomed by the IRA, within a community idolising the IRA as their protectors.
Still no reason imo for reducing their sentences from the maximum available.

I most certainly would always hold to the letter of the law for Begum too,
while till demanding she face the maximum penalty for all crimes she has committed

Particularly for some of us who are BAME ourselves, her colour is irrelevant
Some of my relatives, who fled to escape the genocide she admires, have darker skin.

It is her British nationality and the fact that she went abroad to join, not an ordinary terrorist organisation like the IRA, not even a large gang of paedophiles,
but an organisation that she knew was committing genocide and crimes against humanity against citizens of foreign countries

You are perfectly entitled to feel compassion and advocate all the leniency you want for any surviving terrorists of e.g. the 7/7 bombs , the Manchester Arena etc-
(and for any UK politicians who are maybe paid / traitors)
because these crimes were committed in the UK against mostly Uk citizens

What right do you have to excuse British citizens for collaborating with genocide, slavery & crimes against humanity against other countries ?

Those crimes are in any case in a totally different class from "ordinary" murderous terrorism even like 9/11

I've seen some awful stuff from FBPE. Got to be honest.

It's not really surprising - there are thousands of members. Plus people who belong to a "movement" can get evangelical if they are surrounded by too many like minded people.

Also, I do understand people who wish or say mean things about leavers, because actually I secretly hope that bad things happen to no-deal brexiters. When Brexit poses an existential threat to you and your family (as is the case for some FBPE people who are Brits in EU or vice versa) then strong feelings are understandable.

I most certainly would always hold to the letter of the law for Begum too,
while till demanding she face the maximum penalty for all crimes she has committed

This isn't a very high bar though, because there is very little evidence that she was a perpetrator of crime in the U.K. - the evidence is rather on the side of her being a victim of crime. She may or may not have committed crimes in Syria but collecting evidence for that will be tricky.

I would like to see a new law with a 20-year sentence for anyone who goes abroad to join any organisation

• whether IslamoNazi, white Nazi, communist etc - whose aims involve genocide or slavery

These crimes are in a completely different category in scale and degree of deliberate industrialised crimes against humanity to anything else

Begum deliberately went abroad to join IS, glorifying in the fact that they commit genocide, slavery, mass rape.

There is no evidence that she was groomed more than say a teenage IRA bomber growing up in a community that regarded the IRA as freedom fighters defending them against a brutal British occupation.

MN - rightly - goes full-out demonisation of an 18 / 19-year old man who rapes a fellow student because he thinks he's entitled to
even where it is obvious he has been brought up in a family and community that regards that as "boys being boys"

His crime would be that one rape, not thousands of rapes & brutal murders

Chucking a teenager in jail for 20 years for going abroad to make ISIS babies is frankly a very expensive sledgehammer to crack a very small nut. The cost to the state (ie the tax payer) would be of the order of £1 million. You could do a lot of rehabilitation with that money.

There is no evidence that she was groomed more than say a teenage IRA bomber growing up in a community that regarded the IRA as freedom fighters defending them against a brutal British occupation.

Sure. Now tell me how many Irish teenagers who did not commit a violent crime were jailed for 20 years for shagging a terrorist and having his babies?

That's the whole point:

Maybe I'm disloyal, but I'm not concerned about her past or future crimes in the UK
That's the UK's business
and to be blunt, even a hundred x 7/7s or Manchester Arenas are not remotely comparable to genocide.

What does piss me off is all the sympathy for the far worst crime of collaborating, to at least some degree, in genocide, slavery, mass rapes in other countries

If we're talking about being a law abiding country, we should demonstrate that we are a law abiding country

The UK proviso to the UN Treaty states the United Kingdom retains the right to deprive a naturalised person of his nationality on the following grounds,...

Begum is not naturalised

but I better not make too much of a fuss as I am one of those pesky naturalised citizens

Is there any wonder that Ireland wants a water tight legal backstop?!

Yes, totally agree prettybird. If she comes home, Begum's fate should be decided by the criminal justice system, end of discussion. She's become a political pawn and an object of some really peculiar sadistic authoritarian fantasies.

You keep seeing it just as her fucking terrorists
and that value for money matetrs

This is about a Brit going abroad to join an organisation committing horrific crimes over there
So, penny-pinching is fucking disgusting

This was a crime committed by a British citizen against foreign countries, so the British taxpayer doesn't get to penny-pinch

She deliberately joined to collaborate in genocide, slavery, mass rapes.
No rehabilitation for that
There is a very high failure rate for attempted "rehabilitation" of IS people - e.g. Machester

We will have to see if there is specific evidence that she was one of the many foreign IS women who policed conquered women, whipping or marking them out for beheading.

The difficulty of identifying women mostly covered from head to toe - and finding survicors - is why I would make the offence something we can actually prove

THis is about the arrogance of expecting that a Brit can join an organisation committing horrific crimes abroad and get off without significant punishment
Disgraceful British entitlement

If she comes home she'll presumably be prosecuted. I have no problem with that. I have a big problem with people foaming at the mouth in their haste to imprison (or worse) a teenager when we don't even know what crimes she committed. I'm kind of attached to the rule of law.

And for the avoidance of doubt: I have no issue with the book being thrown at her if/when she come back and for the law to follow due process.

Indeed, if the government is that confident that she is guilty, it should be requesting her extradition

As I said on the last thread, by the government's logic, members of the UVF, UDA and other suspected loyalist terrorists should have their British citizenship taken away from them as they are a danger to British citizens/the British state and as they have the right to Irish citizenship, would therefore not be made stateless.

Or is it different when it's so close to home?

(For double standards, see also: young, aristocratic white girls seduced by fascism )?

(For double standards, see also: young, aristocratic white girls seduced by fascism hmm)

Totally agree, prettybird*.

So what about politicians being financed by foreign powers such as Russia? Why have they not lost their citizenship?

^
This
I still fail to understand why the threat from Russian interference and their support for the rise of populist leaders is not causing serious alarm bells. We scoffed and tutted from afar at the election of Trump and the widely accepted interference by Russia. It has now been shown to have happened here too with Brexit and it is also happening in Europe but yet there is no mention from our media and government of something so serious as Russian interference in our democracy and a referendum that will change all our lives forever.

I don’t wish to minimise what Begum has done and she should certainly be made to face the consequences according to the law and not trial by media. I just can’t help thinking that it is all just a very convenient distraction from what is actually going on.

Why has the discussion turned to SB again?
Her family has applied for JR on the decision to remove citizenship. They have also said they deplored her interview comments. I hope they win.
But let’s now leave this discussion to the law courts rather than the court of MN.