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Brexit

Can I ask a question about a "hard border"

382 replies

StartedEarly · 30/01/2019 13:08

Forgive me if this has been done before or if it's a stupid question.

If there is no deal we are told there will be a hard border.

Leo Varadkar has said they will not be policing a hard border.
The UK doesn't want a hard border.

So who exactly is going to come along and build checkpoints?

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5
Phuquocdreams · 31/01/2019 07:31

It is not in Sinn Fein’s interest to participate. Ultimately they want a United Ireland, so unstabilised NI, with Britain acting like complete arseholes and blatantly favouring one side (I have no idea how the arrangement with the DUP is not against the GFA) is in their interests. A bit like Jeremy Corbyn. Before Brexit, the Union was never so secure, a large number of Catholics in opinion polls showed no interest in a United ireland. That has changed - so this mess is in Sinn Fein’s favour.
It’s a bit like how Jeremy Corbyn seems to be secretly thrilled by this mess.In the UK, the grown-ups seem to have left the building. This is only compounded by acting like some kind of rogue state (ignoring peace agreements, going back on what they had previously agreed (backstop, WA), professing complete ignorance about international laws and norms around borders).

bellinisurge · 31/01/2019 07:32

Of course you can't resort to terrorism, @Weetabixandshreddies . Twats do this. Murderous twats do. And GFA kept a lid on them.
If you really understand the politics as you claim you would see how important and miraculous GFA is.

Weetabixandshreddies · 31/01/2019 07:38

weetabix Some people vote for Sinn Fein because they are an abstentionist party. How are they disenfranchising those voters?

Well by not taking their seats they are allowing the DUP to control what happens aren't they? Their refusal might have a symbolic meaning but practically the views of their voters aren't being represented.

They want a united Ireland in which case Brexit would be a non issue.
And many other people don't agree. If that was the majority view then they coukd seek a referendum, as Scotland did. Organise politically. Use the democratic process that exists to further your campaign.

If the support isn't there from the electorate then unfortunately you have to accept that. Why should the minority be able to impose their will on the majority?

If enough people in NI want a united Ireland then they will get that eventually through democracy.

Weetabixandshreddies · 31/01/2019 07:40

And GFA kept a lid on them.
If you really understand the politics as you claim you would see how important and miraculous GFA is.

I do understand politics. I also understand that the GFA barely kept a lid on it. If you look at the incidents of violent acts committed it could be argued that it hasn't really kept a lid on it at all.

bellinisurge · 31/01/2019 07:43

@Weetabixandshreddies all worthy observations. And we have an international treaty to address this. Called the GFA. Which is currently being fucked with and exploited.

Bluntness100 · 31/01/2019 07:43

The back Stop is actually a decent solution, it means effectively we remain in a customs union with the eu, until another solution is found, ie technology and avoids a hard border there, so it's a means of still getting out, avoiding a hard border, and gives us time to find a solution.

The issue is Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is not just our only land border with another country, it's also the eus border with us. No way round that little fact. And they must protect their border because of different trading terms and customs requirements,. So they are saying you can't decide to stop the back stop, unless we agree our border is protected, so we need to agree it together. Which I think is fair, but parliament doesn't.

At some point the people fighting it need to realise, there isn't another solution, and it's ludicrous for Rees-Mogg to keep suggesting technology. It doesn't exist, they checked every single border in the world. So we would need to pay to develop it and implement it. And that would take years, as they are looking at tracking goods from the point of entry or manufacture. That's huge,

As ken Clarke said, it's perfectly bloody harmless, and we are now in the ludicrous position of trying to vaguely renegotiate it.

Mistigri · 31/01/2019 07:44

I also understand that the GFA barely kept a lid on it. If you look at the incidents of violent acts committed it could be argued that it hasn't really kept a lid on it at all.

So your answer is to blow the lid off? You're nuts.

Do you live in Ireland/NI? If not, when did you last visit?

Weetabixandshreddies · 31/01/2019 07:45

www.northernireland.gov.uk/articles/executive-programme-tackling-paramilitary-activity-and-organised-crime-0

This inquiry started in 2015, before Brexit.

Why was there a need if the GFA was respected by all sides?

Nativityriot · 31/01/2019 07:46

weetabix sorry, it is a bit more complicated than that.

I am from a solidly unionist background and I completely understand Sinn Féin’s position.

I think you’re overlooking the fact that many people in Northern Ireland consider themselves to be under occupation from a hostile nation that has treated them badly for hundreds of years. Obviously if that is the case anywhere, you will get civil unrest on a wide spectrum ranging from political resistance to wild card protest. It’s really important to recognise the ‘violence’ has not been one way. For example, the people of Derry, who almost entirely consider themselves Irish, have a border with Donegal, are Irish citizens, had years of very fraught army presence with door to doors - army knocking on your door in the middle of the night and kicking you all out on the street. Patrols watching your kids go to school.

Imagine in this negotiation, that France said, well, we don’t agree with brexit. So now we’re going to take Kent, Sussex, Suffolk and Norfolk. And all the people in those four counties said ‘WTF???!? We never wanted to be part of France! We hate France!’

But it happened anyway. Your granny and aunts live in one of those counties, now you have to cross an army patrol with your passport to be ‘allowed’ to go and see them. Furthermore, the French army moves in, clearly loathing the local community, treating them badly, harassing them. The French government doesn’t really care, because having got the counties, it doesn’t care about them anymore, they don’t have huge influence, lots of French sort of hate the English anyway. The new four county region is underfunded, pushed from being one of the most economically successful areas of the U.K. to being a basket-case backwater. Then France decides to do something that you all think is CRAZY and frantically vote against, that shreds the unity you’ve managed to build across the borders, that will make your granny and your aunts harder to reach or to help. But they are led by ideologues who could not care less about you, who make the most shameless of ignorant mistakes about you. No matter, those four counties are gone now, nothing you can do about it.

Now, if you resisted this forced takeover that was destroying a land you loved, would you consider yourself entitled to do so? Can you see how the rage it produced could easily tip into violence, which while not condonable, is understandable?

I’m from solid east Belfast and half my family are called billy and even I understand and have huge sympathy for the republican point of view. But I also identify as British AND Irish, as the result of several hundred years of British rule, and I don’t want to give my British citizenship up either.

You say the GFA held a fragile peace like it’s a bad thing! It’s an amazing thing! It’s a highly successful political work of art! It allows people like me to support and sympathise with the opposite side, and listen to them, without it threatening my rights. It allowed us to edge gently into ever greater integration at a scale that was palatable to all, because hey, we’re all EU citizens anyway!

Imagine how you would feel at that arbitrary line running through your part of the U.K., hugely affecting every area of your life, and see how you would feel about people being so shruggy about it.

Weetabixandshreddies · 31/01/2019 07:48

So they are saying you can't decide to stop the back stop, unless we agree our border is protected, so we need to agree it together. Which I think is fair, but parliament doesn't.

But they can decide to never agree that the border is protected, simply as a way to prevent the UK from ever fully Brexiting.

I don't think that is fair.

DippyAvocado · 31/01/2019 07:51

I've just read through this thread. Weetabix, I think you represent leavers who have become so obsessed by a hard Brexit that they can't see the wood for the trees.

If people take a step back, they will see that they are arguing for something pretty unimportant versus something that hugely affects day to day lives. Leaving the customs union was never even suggested at the time of the referendum. The only benefit is that we could get a trade deal with one of the few nations we don't already have a comprehensive one with as EU members, mainly the US. The US have already said they want a deal that benefits their agri-food industry. 80% of people in the UK say they don't want a lowering of food standards so such a deal is a non-starter anyway. Does this really trump the everyday reality of people's lives in NI? There is no comparison in levels of priority here.

Only a tiny minority of ERG loons and their supporters actually really care about the Customs Union (or even understand what it is) and for this the populations of NI and the ROI are being held to ransom

No deal fans need to take a deep breath, accept they're in the minority and make some compromises. I don't like the WA, but it is a compromise.

jasjas1973 · 31/01/2019 07:51

Never heard SF threaten violence if a no deal brexit happens, infact unequivocally condemning the Derry bombing.

The new(er) terrorist setups were not signatories to the GFA.

SF have a democratic mandate not to sit in Westminster and remember there is no Stormont assembly because of corrupt practices by the DUP, in any other walk of life Foster would be behind bars not holding the nation to ransom.

bellinisurge · 31/01/2019 07:52

Nobody claiming GFA is perfect. Nobody claiming there were no problems with criminality. But flush it down the loo is not the answer.

Mistigri · 31/01/2019 07:53

I don't think that is fair.

But it's fair to blow up a peace agreement because you don't like foreigners?

Have you ever been to NI?

Eyewhisker · 31/01/2019 07:55

Weetabix - Sinn Fein do not take their seats because there is no evidence that Irish representation at Westminster did anything. For 100 years the Irish elected a Home Rule party to Westminster. Their demands for Home Rule we’re consistently overruled or postponed. This only changed when Ireland instead elected Sinn Fein which instead of going to Westminster set up its own parliament in Dublin. Britain of course tried to put this down by force and then imposed the partition of the country against the democratic wishes of the Irish people to create a little statelet for the descendants of its colonial settlers. Whilst I totally disagree with violence, I can understand their abstentionist policy.

In terms of N Irish nationalist interests, these are being represented much more effectively by Ireland and the EU. This is why the backstop exists. Britain has never shown any concern for the Irish in NI (hence the creation of NI in the first place, the border that does not respect local demographics, the blatant discrimination against Catholics under Stormont).

Having your interests represented by the EU seems a whole lot better to me.

Mistigri · 31/01/2019 07:56

Only a tiny minority of ERG loons and their supporters actually really care about the Customs Union (or even understand what it is) and for this the populations of NI and the ROI are being held to ransom

This is a good point. People are prepared to forego peace for something they don't understand and which will not affect them in any way whatsoever. It's insanity.

Weetabixandshreddies · 31/01/2019 07:59

DippyAvocado

I don't want a hard Brexit. I want trade deals/customs union in place and quite why our government haven't managed to negotiate that in the 2 and a half years I don't understand.

But if we are to believe the arguments being put forward now there is no solution to the border issue. Therefore does that mean that the UK never has been able and never will be able to leave the EU?

So to flip your argument the populations of NI and ROI can hold the rest of the UK to ransom?

HappyHugs · 31/01/2019 08:04

Agree with all that Nativityriot, eyewhisker and Dippy have said. Your arguments are all coherent and reasonable. Well said

Mistigri · 31/01/2019 08:04

The WA includes a customs union. What is your specific problem with it?

HappyHugs · 31/01/2019 08:04

Or GB could let us go our own way Weetabix?

Weetabixandshreddies · 31/01/2019 08:06

But it's fair to blow up a peace agreement because you don't like foreigners?

I beg your pardon? If you are going to accuse me of that show your evidence.

What gives you the right to chuck accusations like that around? How dare you.

You know nothing of my views or my background.

I don't agree politically with the EU. I don't agree with how it is run or where I see it heading.

I have no problem with the freedom of movement of people though I do believe that no one should be allowed to cross borders without showing papers proving who they are. I think that is just madness, but so long as you are not a criminal I have no problem with people coming here to live and work.

Either back up your statement or retract it.

Weetabixandshreddies · 31/01/2019 08:09

The WA includes a customs union. What is your specific problem with it?

My problem is the backstop. That the EU have to agree it and that they could, indefinitely, keep us tied into the WA.

Or GB could let us go our own way Weetabix?

Yes they could. But what about the people who don't want that? They should just be ignored on your say so?

jasjas1973 · 31/01/2019 08:12

I want trade deals/customs union in place and quite why our government haven't managed to negotiate that in the 2 and a half years I don't understand

If you cannot understand that, then the politics of NI is beyond you.

For starters, you cannot be in a CU and have separate trade deals, leaving the EU wrecks 70 FTA we currently have, damages trade from our closest markets and damages EU trade with us.

I have no problem with the freedom of movement of people though I do believe that no one should be allowed to cross borders without showing papers proving who they are. I think that is just madness

EVERYONE entering the UK has to show papers proving who they are and at present the UK can instantly access eu databases (which we helped create) leaving the EU makes us less safe as we lose access to SIS 2.

We have got right now what you appear to be demanding.

Mistigri · 31/01/2019 08:17

My problem is the backstop. That the EU have to agree it and that they could, indefinitely, keep us tied into the WA.

You said you want a customs union. The backstop literally is a customs union.

Do you want a customs union?

Weetabixandshreddies · 31/01/2019 08:19

EVERYONE entering the UK has to show papers proving who they are and at present the UK can instantly access eu databases (which we helped create) leaving the EU makes us less safe as we lose access to SIS 2.

Except that they don't. I have travelled to the EU and back. Just been waived through without even a glance at passports. Sometimes I've held up the closed passport, other times I've kept them hidden just to see if they ask but nope.

Travelling throughout EU we've driven backwards and forwards across borders with no one even their to check passports so how do they know if I am a criminal on the run?

Simply for security I think borders should be maintained.