Can I ask a question about a "hard border"

[StartedEarly]

Forgive me if this has been done before or if it's a stupid question.

If there is no deal we are told there will be a hard border.

Leo Varadkar has said they will not be policing a hard border.
The UK doesn't want a hard border.

So who exactly is going to come along and build checkpoints?

A so-called soft border would be just as disastrous as a hard border walking. Any infrastructure at all, such as ANPR cameras, would be immediately destroyed with drones.

Can someone explain to me how a border in the sea would work? I've heard it mentioned but can't think what it would look like.

Nigella
THe border in the sea would become the external border of the EU
so full customs controls
like on the ferries between Africa and Spain

if the UK wants the right to diverge from EU trade rules

• the famous trade deals with the USA

then the EU will not want that shit getting across their borders

So, a line of vessels in the Irish Sea?

Any infrastructure at all, such as ANPR cameras, would be immediately destroyed with drones So why haven't the cameras currently on the border been destroyed?

And a majority of MPs would never allow the UK to be separated by a sea border, hence why he current WA is unacceptable.

Checking goods away from the border (if even needed) is perfectly doable.

Oh that was really dim of me. You mean, the ferries going either way across the Irish Sea would have customs points in them?

Nigellas
No
I mean sodding great customs clearance areas like they are planning for Dover
and as they already have at ports like Southampton and Tilbury

Thanks..
What a total mess.

So what most of you are saying is that a hard border would break the GFA, that the EU will insist on a border if no deal, that WTO require a border and that no technological solution exists to solve this? Is that correct?

If so then the UK has not been in a position to leave the EU since the inception of the GFA? The GFA was agreed in order to end the terrorist activity affecting the island of Ireland (and mainland UK). If we break the GFA it will lead to a resurgence of terrorist activity? So the whole UK is now being held to ransom by terrorists, is that correct? There is no way for the UK to leave the EU because at some point a border will be required and that will end the GFA.

How can this be seen, by any democratic organisation, as being ok?

God only knows Weetabix

Some useful analysis for anyone who’s interestedly www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/brexit-irish-border-explained-headache-not-going-away-time-soon/amp/

If so then the UK has not been in a position to leave the EU since the inception of the GFA? The GFA was agreed in order to end the terrorist activity affecting the island of Ireland (and mainland UK). If we break the GFA it will lead to a resurgence of terrorist activity? So the whole UK is now being held to ransom by terrorists, is that correct? There is no way for the UK to leave the EU because at some point a border will be required and that will end the GFA.

Forget the terrorists for a minute.

How about think of the people along the border, on the Northern side it is mainly all nationalists communities. People who consider themselves Irish, who consider Dublin their capital, London to be a foreign country - how do you think they feel being cut off from their country. They also voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

Think of the cross border businesses, on both sides, that will be destroyed.

The disruption to cross border trade and co-operation. For example, in certain areas along the border if you phone for an ambulance one can turn up from either Northern Ireland or Ireland.

And lastly, there's almost 300 crossings. People cross several times a day every day to go to work, school, the shop, visit family. All those crossings won't be able to be manned border crossings so roads will have to close, as they British done previously.

The border also runs through houses, farms, villages etc. Think of the disruption.

Now, how would you feel if you lived a long the border in Ireland?

Do you think it's acceptable to put people through this?

Yes Weetabix that’s essentially the issue. The Brexit decision,decided on the basis of a UK wide referendum, is in direct conflict with the GFA Treaty, decided by an Ireland wide referendum. Residents of NI therefore participated in two mutually incompatible referenda.

The UK took absolutely no heed of this paradox while we in NI were yelling from the rooftops that it could not work.

But I disagree that the threat of terrorism Is, or should be, the motivation. The UK’s existing commitments to its own citizens in NI should be honoured. Full stop. It is a unique case and it requires a unique solution- give us the backstop on our own if you like, it has huge support in NI (beyond the DUP).

Very well said Rdoo

Sorry, my focus on terrorism stems entirely from threads on here where people have proclaimed that breaking the GFA will lead directly to the resurgence of terrorism, as though that is the only consequence of the GFA being compromised.

We fear it may be the ultimate one Weetabix, but the implications are numerous and all negative.

This is not, despite what many seem to believe, a scare story that’s been invented for the remain movement. This is our lives, it will affect every single fundamental aspect of who we are. It is about identity, culture, respect and trust as much as anything else.

As an aside, should a civil war break out in the rest of GB between remainers and leavers after Brexit, which side would be the ‘terrorists’?

Neither? Both? Or Is it always just whichever side opposes your views?

When people talk about borders between NI and ROI I don't think they realize that many roads go in and out of each country some a couple of times ... the border runs through people's homes , gardens , even a pub is half on one side half on the other !

Just another example of Brexiteers ignorance .

Personally don't think it's possible without a return to violence ( which was already stated to have increased over the past 6 years )

Just another example of Brexiteers ignorance
Its remainers who are insisting on a hard border. Brexiteers, the UK, ROI & EU (as far as I read) don't want a hard border. I really dont get why remainers are trying to rip up the Belfast agreement and restart violence in N.I. I guess its tunnel vision.

That's absolutely not true walkingdead remainders actually want the union to continue - we don't want a hard Brexit, no backstop or any similarly destructive exits - Remainers genuinely want the EU to remain how it is, especially given the fragile and very hard-fought agreements such as the GFA

stinkypoo Well that is not the impression they give on these forums. All I read is "Brexit isn't hard enough, immigrants will still sneak in across the border", "there has to be a hard border in Ireland", "we have to rip up the GFA/Belfast agreement".

Its like they want a scorched earth policy, just because leavers voted to exit the EU. I mean if I supported the EU I would want to be as nice as possible about leaving in the hopes that some time in the future we could try and rejoin the EU. But not remainers they seem to want to make sure if we leave the possibility of ever rejoining is destroyed forever and the UK is destroyed is the process.

Thankfully they are in the minority.

There is only so much informal resolution of a legal situation that you can do. The border issue is essentially a legal situation. Which, if not resolved in a way that avoids a border will mean a hard border.
This pathetic attempt by No Dealers to blame everyone except themselves; to claim the hard border is being driven by Remainers ffs, is just a childish attempt to avoid a grown up legal difficulty. It doesn't have to be resolved by a hard border if a GFA appropriate technological solution can be reached. The WA allows time to do this. And if it cannot be done in the transition period, the backstop kicks in until it is sorted. Why is that such a dreadful idea? Could it be that, contrary to ERG lies, there is no easy technological solution?

Personally don't think it's possible without a return to violence ( which was already stated to have increased over the past 6 years )

Then surely whoever has increased the violence has already broken the GFA?

The people responsible for the increase in violence will be the ones to blame. I really don't see how it can be right that the entire UK can be held to ransom by a few people intent on committing acts of terrorism. We don't give in to terrorists anywhere else.

The border issue should be worked through to create the best scenario for all parties involved. But to then also have to give in to the demands of those wanting to commit terrorist acts is wrong.

I understand you’re ‘trolling’ Walking. Using our reality against us and trying to turn the argument in its head so that you can feel comfortable and relaxed about what’s happening. When I read posts like yours my immediate thought is; they do have a conscience, they do see the problem, they just don’t want to responsible for it.

That’s fine, pretend we ‘want’ a breakdown in our hard won peace simply because we describe the implications. It makes no sense at all but it will allow you to continue with your altered state of reality. At least you’ll be clean of conscience.

Your scenario would be possible also, guaranteed in fact, with the backstop in place Weetabix. If it’s doable with technology then the backstop will never be needed. Wouldn’t that be the better option?

What do you think happens when people are completely disenfranchised politically, there is no nationalist representation in Westminster and no Assembly in NI? A political vacuum anywhere in the world would be a dangerous place.. something will always have to fill it.