Can I ask a question about a "hard border"

[StartedEarly]

Forgive me if this has been done before or if it's a stupid question.

If there is no deal we are told there will be a hard border.

Leo Varadkar has said they will not be policing a hard border.
The UK doesn't want a hard border.

So who exactly is going to come along and build checkpoints?

The problem is for both the E.U. and its trading area and the UK and its trading area. In order to comply with the basic requirements of the WTO, you need to have control of your trading area. Doesn't have to be a hard border; it can be a technological approach. But it has to be something. A physical border is the easy quick solution. But GFA requires that there is no hard border.

But it has to be something.
So what actually happens if neither Ireland or the UK is willing to put up a border? That would satisfy the GFA. Would the EU send in border officials? Fine Ireland?
Just wondering what the consequences are.

I think it's a question of how much fudge they are prepared to tolerate.
Varadkar is refusing to discuss any customs or law enforcement activity on the border. It sounds like the E.U. will expect something.
We are in a weaker position in the UK because we will be Billy No Mates hoping to make glorious deals without proper control of our trading area.

If the UK breaks the GFA - which no Deal does, Ireland can feel less uncomfortable about breaking it too. I wonder why NI went for Remain?....

Even if we didn't want to, we'd be obliged to... an open unsecured border is an open goal for people smugglers, drug runners, contraband and duty evaders... all kinds of undesirable/illegal economic activity. Along with checking the quality of goods coming in. Remember the Chinese baby milk scandal a few years ago. Scores of babies died, hundreds of thousands hospitalised? Well, Britain with an unsecured land border with another trading jurisdiction would fast become the world's dumping ground for low grade/unsafe/fraudulent goods.

There will be no hard border. People need to drop this phrase from this conversation. A hard border will not happen. It isn’t an option. Anyone trying to establish one would be taking not only their own but many other lives in their hands. Literally. It won’t be allowed.

They’re exploring electronic solutions with automated number plate recognition and rfid for goods. But It’ll take time to create and test a comprehensive system.

The GFA requires that there be no hard border. Reinstating a hard border would risk the Troubles starting again. Already there have been bomb scares & shootings.
Under the terms of Brexit, we will need a border, in order to manage goods crossing the border.
The EU have looked at every other border in the world, to see if there is any possibility of copying how another border is managed in this scenario. It doesn't exist anywhere else. A technological solution would seem to be the answer, if someone could figure out how to come up with one. So far, nothing.

Really, the government should have thought of this before offering a referendum. But they didn't.

@Seniorschoolmum , it has long been part of Leaver fantasy that a technological solution is just around the corner. And yet not around the corner enough to avoid falling into the backstop.
I also doubt that Ireland would put up a border. But the uk suffers more from a weak border than Ireland does. The E.U. has a huge trading area of which Ireland is but part. The UK does not. If our trading area is so obviously messed up, particularly when we had a viable option for avoiding that, getting future trade deals will be more difficult.

There will be no hard border. People need to drop this phrase from this conversation. A hard border will not happen. It isn’t an option. Anyone trying to establish one would be taking not only their own but many other lives in their hands

...and you know this because?

If there is no sort of trade agreement, then once the UK starts lowering food standards i.e US hormone fed beef, low tariffs or smuggling leads to ROI businesses going bust then we will see gradual introduction of border patrols followed by infrastructure is bound to take place.

The UK Government is content to see potential food and meds shortages in the UK, large sections of JIT manufacturing to relocate and the FS to move some business to Dublin/Paris/Frankfurt,
i therefore doubt very much if the Govt give a 4X about some violence in NI.

On day one after Brexit it won’t be as big an issue. But the minute the U.K. diverges from EU regulations or does a trade deal with another country the EU is at risk from substandard goods and food coming in through the open border with the U.K.

That is apart from smuggling goods without paying tariffs.

There will be no hard border. People need to drop this phrase from this conversation. A hard border will not happen. It isn’t an option. Anyone trying to establish one would be taking not only their own but many other lives in their hands. Literally. It won’t be allowed.

As someone in a border county I sincerely, SINCERELY wish I shared your confidence. Looking at how all this is playing out nothing would shock me anymore. I, along with so many more, am utterly devastated that we are on the verge of being ripped apart and the peace we know and love to be shattered.

What will happen I don't know. But one day I'd like to see Nigel Farage and David Cameron prosecuted in the International Criminal Court for wilfully creating the conditions under which the GFA is likely to be broken.
But that's probably another unicorn.

fedup if it is attempted then I really do worry for you and all around you. The consequences will be horrific.

*Well, Britain with an unsecured land border with another trading jurisdiction would fast become the world's dumping ground for low grade/unsafe/fraudulent goods.

The obvious problem with that is that if it's possible to import this stuff into ROI (or make it there) after Brexit then why isn't it already happening now and flooding across the already-open border? Presumably ROI will largely have the same laws after Brexit as it has now and the border will be no more open than it is now so what mechanism is going to cause all these dodgy goods to flood into the UK?

The same applies to drug-running, people-smuggling or whatever. Anything illegal that could be done after Brexit can already be done now.

If there is no hard land border there has to be a border between northern Ireland and mainland UK. That would not be welcomed.

The change would be on the British side ie leaving the EU. The Irish side is status quo. It is for the British side to honour the GFA without need for a border. Breaking an international treaty ain’t a good look and I’d expect legal action of some kind to follow if this happened

@onalongsabbatical , hopefully Farage being a "person of interest " in the Robert Mueller investigation will keep him out of the US.
Maybe he could join his pal Assange in the Ecuador embassy.

Fishes - at the moment both RoI and the UK have to comply with EU standards. There may some black market goods which don't but nominally both comply and there are mechanisms for ensuring that's the case and taking action against rogue traders.

The difficulty after Brexit is that the UK government is going to have to enter into treaties with other countries to supply goods. Those are less likely to meet current EU standards (see US hormone treated meat which currently can't be sold in Europe). If the UK government wants to enter into treaties to get lower quality goods, that's its affair but the EU cannot allow unrestricted access for these lower quality goods into their territory. Therefore at the moment the options are:

1. ongoing compliance with EU standards
2. Border checks

@bellinisurge just a dream of mine to see him get his comeuppance.

While we're here - you're my prepping guru! And for lots of other people, too, I'm sure. Thank you!

Thank you @onalongsabbatical .

If we the UK don't care to put up borders, why on earth are we leaving the EU?

Funny you should ask that ...

Fishes - at the moment both RoI and the UK have to comply with EU standards. There may some black market goods which don't but nominally both comply and there are mechanisms for ensuring that's the case and taking action against rogue traders.

So give an actual example of something I'd be able to do on March 30th with impunity that I couldn't do on March 29th then?

Using the example provided, I'd be no more able to set up a ROI plant making contaminated baby formula after Brexit than before Brexit.

If it reached the shops in NI there'd presumably eventually be an investigation and the importer or Irish wholesaler identified - that would be the same whether we're in the EU or not. I don't know what arrangements there'll be for conducting cross-border investigations after Brexit but no doubt there'll be something in place.

My point is that the EU doesn't become the unregulated wild west just because we're not members any more. ^They'd* have good reason to worry about goods from outside the EU making their way across an open border but we have no more reason to worry about EU goods entering the UK unchecked than we do today.