Can I ask a question about a "hard border"

[StartedEarly]

Forgive me if this has been done before or if it's a stupid question.

If there is no deal we are told there will be a hard border.

Leo Varadkar has said they will not be policing a hard border.
The UK doesn't want a hard border.

So who exactly is going to come along and build checkpoints?

The problem with the backstop though is that there is no way for the UK to leave without permission from the EU so technically they could force us to continue it indefinitely.

Why is there no nationalist representation in parliament?

And if people feel disenfranchised then they should organise politically and challenge the system democratically. There will never ever be justification for terrorism.

There is no SinnFein representation in the UK Parliament because the elected Sinn Fein MPs won't take an oath of loyalty to the Queen as all MPs do before sitting.
The twats are happy to take expenses, though.
And so there is no nationalist voice in Parliament. The SDLP would sit but sadly there are no longer any SDLP MPs representing the nationalist community- please, correct if I am wrong and have missed an SDLP MP in Westminster.

That’s why I suggest a NI only backstop Weetabix. Reduce the risk on the rest of the UK. This was what was originally proposed but the uk govt wanted it for all of UK.

In any case if technical solutions are as within reach as leavers claimed it won’t ever be used and becomes defunct so there’s nothing at all to fear. That they do fear an endless tie to EU suggests they know technology cannot provide the means of avoiding a hard border.

Bellini no there are no SDLP reps in Westminster. And Weetabix the people who need to organise ‘politically’ here seek their representation in Dublin, not London, which of course also cant happen within current arrangements.

There is no SinnFein representation in the UK Parliament because the elected Sinn Fein MPs won't take an oath of loyalty to the Queen as all MPs do before sitting.

Precisely. There is nationalist representation in parliament. They just choose not to participate. So they don't want to engage, particularly now in an issue that directly affects the people that they represent yet the threat of the return to the troubles hangs over everyone's heads and the UK government may now be forced to turn against the will of the voters and cancel Brexit just to appease the people who refuse to engage in the democratic process. That stinks.

@Weetabixandshreddies , I have many problems with Sinn Fein of which this is but one. But if they believe that Westminster has no authority over NI, that's why they don't take their seats there. It's kin of their thing.
That was the magic of GFA and the Stormont Assembly. It meant different things to different people and no one shot anyone about it.
Saying "well they should all just get on" is answered by GFA. And Brexit messes with that.

In any case if technical solutions are as within reach as leavers claimed it won’t ever be used and becomes defunct so there’s nothing at all to fear. That they do fear an endless tie to EU suggests they know technology cannot provide the means of avoiding a hard border.

But the point is that the EU could choose to refuse any technological solution saying that it isn't suitable, thereby trapping the UK.

And if the SDLP candidates were elected they would be able to sit in the HoC. Why are there none? Sinn Fein is a nationalist party who refuse to take their seats. If you refuse to take part you can hardly complain that your views are ignored.

Nobody knows what would happen. There’s no appetite on either side for a hard border. But I’m the case of a hard Brexit the British border in Ireland becomes an insecure international border.

I’d imagine nothing would happen for a time. By consider a few scenarios:

• brexiters want to stop free movement. Ireland doesn’t. So immigrants easily enter the UK across the border
• EU has strict rules and standards for goods. Post-Brexit WTO UK doesn’t. Unsafe, inferior goods start flooding into EU via the British border in Ireland

I could go on. Just because nobody WANTS a hard border doesn not mean we won’t NEED one.

But if the technological solution doesn't solve the problem, it's not a solution.

@Weetabixandshreddies , your failure to understand the complex issues in NI just shows why you can't offer a workable solution to it.
GFA does that. And you want to flush it away

Sinn Fein are an abstentionist party. This is their mandate from their voters. They are not about to take their seats simply to save Britain from Brexit.

Their is so much ignorance wrt to Irish politics it is breathtaking.

@bellinisurge

But there are reports that acts of violence have continued, and long before Brexit came about. So has it ever ended?

It seems that the GFA has at best maintained a very fragile peace that is constantly in danger of breaking.

And it is not an argument to say that Sinn Fein don't recognise UK parliament. That is the system and they should work within it to get the change that they want.

At present it seems that the DUP is controlling the outcome of a border in NI.That isn't right but Sinn Fein could be there arguing their point except that they refuse to participate. They can hardly argue later on that their views weren't considered can they?

We are meant to be a civilised society. If you want change you achieve this politically. You don't terrorise people in order to achieve your aims.

Prisoners were released as part of the GFA. If they break that now by returning to terrorism will those prisoners be re sentenced? They benefitted hugely by the treaty and they should have to engage politically now to find a solution that ensures the GFA is maintained.

@Weetabixandshreddies

“So the whole UK is now being held to ransom by terrorists, is that correct?”

No. The UK is being held to an international peace treaty that it itself signed.

Nationalist views were represented in the currently collapsed NI assembly. Sinn Fein support the GFA the DUP did not. Only one of these parties has the ear of the British government. Nationalists have good reason not to trust the British gov both now and in the past.

ghost.......... I agree. And the reason SDLP aren't represented is because not enough people voted for them - it's really quite simple. I know I didn't, the SDLP have been haemorraging votes and good will for years. That's what happens when you ignore and campaign against women's rights to equal healthcare [shrug].

How old are you @Weetabixandshreddies . Do you have any idea how bad it was before?
NI is a conundrum that GFA kinda fixed. Ish. It brought 20 years of peace anyway. Can't you see that ripping it up and flouncing off muttering "you should all just get on", doesn't improve things it worsens them.

@bellinisurge

I understand the politics. I don't agree that it is justified to refuse to engage in the political process and resort to terrorism to make your argument.

Sinn Fein are an abstentionist party. This is their mandate from their voters. They are not about to take their seats simply to save Britain from Brexit

But in this case surely they are disenfranchising their electorate by abstaining? The DUP, thanks to aligning with the Tories, are having their view represented. In fact, they appear to be controlling the issue by refusing to accept NI being treated as a separate customs area.

Why don't Sinn Fein engage to get their view heard?

I don't care what your argument is or what you believe in. Terrorism in a democratic country is never and should never be a justifiable action.

They don't because they are twats. Who cast themselves as highly principled beacons with lots of high minded red lines to appeal to people's worst instincts out of fear. Peppered with sensible bits here and there. Sound familiar?

weetabix Some people vote for Sinn Fein because they are an abstentionist party. How are they disenfranchising those voters?

And just to be clear, they are slightly different twats to the ones committing acts of violence just now.

Their voters don’t want them to take their seats. It’s very simple, they see Britain as a foreign occupier in Ireland and will not therefore recognise a foreign parliament. They want a united Ireland in which case Brexit would be a non issue. Ireland is being dragged into this mess (and the GFA too) because of English desires. This strengths the argument for a UI and an independent Scotland.

And the DUP are creationist loons that are exploiting the situation.
Lovely, isn't it? Makes you value the GFA even more.

Those prisoners will be mostly old men now Weetabix, there’ll be a whole new tranche. Violence is obviously no answer but it’s easy to see why it occurs.

You many not agree with SF not taking their seats but that’s exactly the mandate on which they are elected. They are also represented in the Dail where no doubt they are influencing the Irish position with respect to Brexit.

A single voice at Westminster would be much use even if SDLP took a seat or two but the constituency boundaries in NI have led to a DUP/SF split with no one else elected (except for one independent in the formidable form of Sylvia Herron)

Bellini you are so correct, if rhe technology doesn’t solve the problem then it’s not a solution. It will be blatantly obvious when it has worked and the EU won’t be able to deny it...

@bellinisurge
I am 50ish. I was at Harrods when the bomb exploded. I've lived in London all my life, not far from the docklands area where another bomb was exploded.

I grew up looking out for unattended bags on tube stations. My school was evacuated due to bomb threats (hoaxes but the threat was real due to the atmosphere at the time) so yes I do have a little idea of what it was like.

I still do not agree that you can resort to terrorism if things don't go your way. We don't live in a dictatorship. These people aren't freedom fighters with no way of over turning a despot government.

They could change the system from within if they chose to engage. The fact that they won't tells me that they aren't interested in maintaining the GFA.

All sides have to openly engage in the process of solving the border issue to achieve a solution acceptable to all sides. How is it right to refuse to engage in any discussions, but allow threats of violence and terrorism to control the discussions?

Tbe DUP were the only party to reject GFA. This shit plays into their hands.