Can I ask a question about a "hard border"

[StartedEarly]

Forgive me if this has been done before or if it's a stupid question.

If there is no deal we are told there will be a hard border.

Leo Varadkar has said they will not be policing a hard border.
The UK doesn't want a hard border.

So who exactly is going to come along and build checkpoints?

I don't get that an open border would risk dodgy stuff coming in from Ireland. To reach that border it would have to get into Ireland in the first place and they presumably have border checks in place for non- EU imports.

If we are content with that do we think the EU would force the Irish government to break the GFA by building their own hard border?

It might force Ireland to do it.
I can see people trying to smuggle cheapo EU goods into the UK through the border if it isn't checked. And, of course, people taking advantage of pesky E.U. freedom of movement to travel to the UK via Ireland from other parts of the E.U.
Taking back control of our borders, eh? Who'da thunk it?

And of course, vice versa wuth people trying to smuggle stuff like shit chlorinated chicken into the E.U. from the UK.
But we'll all have blue passports so it'll be fine.

The easiest solution would to put a border between NI and the U.K. I fail to see why that isn't discussed more than the terrible idea of putting a border between NI and ROI. FWIW I hope that there will be a referendum in the future in NI if they wouldn't rather be joined together with the ROI. A few years out of the EU might make more people want that. I could be wrong of course.

Even if the UK wont put up a border, the EU is perfectly in it's right to put up a border itself.

I fail to see why that isn't discussed more than the terrible idea of putting a border between NI and ROI.

It can't be discussed because the DUP won't allow it and without the DUP's support the government will be facing an election.

The easiest solution would to put a border between NI and the U.K. I fail to see why that isn't discussed more than the terrible idea of putting a border between NI and ROI.

So simple!

Except NI is part of the U.K. and many of its residents are British citizens. Why on earth should they have to pass border security to travel to the rest of the U.K.? And where would these checks happen? Would NI be expected to clear its own people for travel to the rest of the U.K. or will all the English, Welsh and Scottish sea and airports take on that job of checking British citizens right to, err, move around the U.K.?

The easiest solution would to put a border between NI and the U.K. I fail to see why that isn't discussed more than the terrible idea of putting a border between NI and ROI. Because the DUP won't countenance it, and without the DUP the Tories aren't even in power.

Well, we all jumped on THAT one!

People aren't really the issue @ILoveMaxiBondi, goods are the sticking point. For some reason I can't quite fathom nobody seems to be making a big deal about not being able to control who enters the UK from ROI. Really odd under the circumstances.

I feel like I need to add a disclaimer here that I am not a DUPper or even close but I am totally against a border that separates NIs British citizens from the rest of the U.K.

I think NI should be a special economic area in a fudge. I also dislike the idea of UK citizens having to show a passport to get into the rest of the UK. I also dislike UK citizens not being able to exercise the right to choose whether they continue with a pregnancy but this is banned in NI.

Indeed bellini!

Being challenged in court right now BTW!

Whatever they say now there will be a hard border if there's no deal. It is a requirement of the WTO. Both the UK and Ireland will have to check goods crossing the border into there territory.

If they don't then every other member of the WTO will demand free access into the country that doesn't enforce the border. Under WTO rules all countries have to be treated equally unless there's a free trade agreement.

If the UK doesn't control imports from Ireland it's not allowed to control imports from anywhere. This would be devastating for the UK as nobody will do an FTA with us if they're already getting free access. Free access that'd only be going one way. We wouldn't have free access to their markets.

There is a common travel area between the U.K. and Ireland. People don’t have to show passports to travel between them unless they are flying and the airline require it.

Except NI is part of the U.K. and many of its residents are British citizens. Why on earth should they have to pass border security to travel to the rest of the U.K.? And where would these checks happen? Would NI be expected to clear its own people for travel to the rest of the U.K. or will all the English, Welsh and Scottish sea and airports take on that job of checking British citizens right to, err, move around the U.K.?

So basically you're saying that you'd rather have a border between NI and ROI. There will have to be a border somewhere. The EU has been very clear about that. I find it surprising that you feel that free movement between NI and UK is more important than free movement between NI and ROI. To me it would be a no-brainer that a NI-UK border would be easier to live with for people in NI on a daily basis than a border with ROI. I could be totally wrong of course.

It doesn't concern me personally, thank god. But reading these boards I do feel that I probably have a more EU stance on these issues. Which would make sense as I am an EU citizen. I don't understand some of the Brexit logic I'm afraid.

So basically you're saying that you'd rather have a border between NI and ROI.

yeah! That’s what I’m saying

I find it surprising that you feel that free movement between NI and UK is more important than free movement between NI and ROI.

Yes I find made up things surprising too.

Pmk to try and follow...

MaxBondi - some airlines already have identity checks between NI and GB and there are also checks on animal products. This is massively easier and less disruptive than checks on a 550mile land border. As well as not breaking an International Peace Treaty.

All the opinion polls show that ~65% of NI people would accept a sea border rather than a land border. I presume you believe in respecting the wishes of the people of NI?

One option to resolve this is a NI-only referendum on the backstop (not on reunification) but just where the customs border would lie. NI would benefit enormously from special status - in both the UK and the EU - and most NI people recognise that.

A BBC article is stating that the GFA doesn't say anywhere in it that there is to be no border between NI and ROI, just that any border will be the same as our borders with other countries.

Is this true and if so why is everyone saying that a hard border will break the GFA?

Not being goady, just trying to make sense of what I'm reading.

"There is no rule in the WTO requiring its member governments to secure their borders."

Its a tad more complicated..

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-what-are-the-options-for-the-irish-border-after-brexit

Folks- lots of the above is true.

Everyone says they don’t want a hard border and almost everyone means it (personally believe the DUP would love one).

But not wanting one does not equate to not being landed with one. GB will wish to avoid potentially cheaper EU products entering its market once it eventually gets its own trade deals, and presumably won’t be keen on the potential EU migrants that could make their way to England entirely unchallenged.

The EU will definitely want to avoid all sorts of unregulated, poor quality goods entering its market via NI.

And a hard border means anything that curtails those activities- it does not just mean huge customs posts. But any physical infrastructure will be at risk of attack, it’s how it has always been, and will I suspect forever be.

But honestly those things, to me, born and raised on the border, are practical, physical problems and the issue runs much much deeper. As an Irish citizen I do not want to cross a border of any description within my own country (would you?!) And I don’t want to have my freedom to move therein curtailed because of a gerrymandered squiggle on a map. Families, homes, towns, livelihoods are literally split by this line and it matters not one iota, at the minute!

Brexiteers who want their ‘sovereignty’ from a ‘bunch of people in Europe that they didn’t elect - guess what? - that’s how lots of people in NI feel about Westminster. Your Labour and Tory parties don’t even stand for election here so we can’t ever hope to vote them out.

Those who say that there is no reference to the border in the GFA completely fail to see that the whole arrangement was predicated on our dual membership of The EU; it could not have succeeded otherwise. The seamless border was a given!

And those who say ‘oh but there’s peace now, there’s no appetite for going back...’ etc don’t seem to realise that the peace is contingent on what that GFA offers. Everyone had to compromise - Ireland gave up articles 2 and 3 of its constitution which was a massive compromise for nationalists, and a huge gamble for the Irish government which now has no choice but to protect those very same nationalists (and everyone else for that matter) in NI.

A hard border as a result of no deal will be blamed over here on the UK and the DUP; a hard border because of a bad deal (ie a deal without a backstop) will be blamed on the EU and Ireland.

Its a tad more complicated..
That C4 fact check is based on one single professors opinion, not sure that can be cited as a definitive decision.

A country would have to bring a discrimination dispute to the WTO, which could take years to be heard.

A soft border would not automatically break the “most favoured nation” rule" because all countries (inside and out of the EU) bringing goods from ROI to NI would be treated the same.

The UK might actually choose to have zero tariffs for everyone.

The UK & Ireland could seek a “waiver” for the border in the WTO based on security exception clauses.

So yes its not that simple but reasonable to assume there would not have to be a 'hard' border initially and possibly never. And of course the UK/ROI could sort out alternative solutions before it ever became an issue, which both imply they will do.