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Brexit

Westminstenders: Waiting for a Valentines Miracle

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 23:50

Guess what folks, we get to do it all over again for Valentine's Day!

Bet you are all looking forward to that.

May has already been told by the EU its a non-starter, and with there being a vote scheduled again in a fortnight, there is little incentive for the EU to shift. And every incentive to just let us stew and think things over.

We are trying to renege on what we signed up to with the Withdrawal Agreement. Which only proves the EU needs the Backstop. Our credibility as a nation to do deals with is shot through the floor. With everyone but those who think they can stitch us up at least.

There is one key development with the latest vote:

The emergence of a new Brexit voting block within Labour, I believe led by Carole Flint. They are supporting Brexit and are prepared to vote with the government and against the Labour Whip.

This negates the Tory Rebel block, meaning May has a majority if she has the ERG on board - this being a big if, of course.

Many other potential rebels who threatened to quit from government, were detered from doing so by a promise from May and the promise that they had another show down on the 14th they could use to block No Deal.

In not quiting they are showing they are committed to some deal brokered by May and not an alternative by Parliament. This is important. There may be no realistic opportunity for anything else to be realistically be tabled by anyone else now.

I don't think they will quit now, if they can see a potential deal present itself.

The way forward now looks to be the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal only. Keep this in mind and in focus. This will become an increasing pressure and increasingly definitive. Revoke is still on the table, but I just can't see May doing it. Ever.

Whether May can get the EU to back down on the backstop seems unlikely. Its going to be more backwards and forwards on it. Before it becomes obvious its going nowhere. Its just theatre.

What the ERG do next is important. My best guess is they will split into No Deal Hardliners and last minute WA Compromisers. This will leave May short of a majority, but not as far as she has been especially with Labour resolve weakening. I think she may yet get her deal over the line with Labour support of some sort. Probably unofficial rather than direct from public instruction the front bench.

Here's the logic: Corbyn has said he will now discuss matter with her. He still wants to pin Brexit on her and destroy her, but he still wants Brexit and he still wants to keep the Labour Party together despite its differences over Brexit. All without making a clear Labour policy. How does he do this?

The same way he handled the Immigration Bill is possibly the best guess. Plus how can he stop his rebels...? {innocent face emojy} He gets to look tough against May outwardly and make lots of Remainy noises without more outward support for a particular policy. Those awful stupid Northerner MP (or MPs from backward towns if you live in the Metropolian North) who know nothing and screwed Remainia. It plays people off along splits in society, in the hope they don't notice Corbyn really orchestrated it. His MPs in leave areas get to look Leave without consequence, and if it all goes wrong he still get to pin it on May. Thus saving his marginals in both the North and the South 'cos those evil Tories'. And he does stop No Deal in the process. Yes, call me cynical, but thats how he could try and game it. Ultimately Corbyn and May do have certain aligned mutual interests, afterall.

And given there are few alternatives now there apart from Revoke or No Deal, once you think it through doesn't seem as far fetched as it initally sounds. Corbyn certainly seems to have form for it. His priorities are his Party, managing his north / south cultural divide and being seen to kick the Tories.

It'll go to the wire whatever happens, and its hard to see many ways out of this now. We are running out of time, opportunities and options. Of course, this works for May and has been her plan for some time. The question is merely, if she is serious about preventing no deal (and I believe she is) how she persuades either the ERG or Labour to back her.

Afterall, after the WA is done and dusted there is still everything to play for.

OP posts:
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umpteennamechanges · 31/01/2019 16:22

I had a quick look at what the bookies were saying this afternoon. TBF only looked at one and they were predicting extension of A50 to sometime before beginning of July but couldn't call it between WA being signed or no deal.

Missbel · 31/01/2019 16:22

"The thing that just - I don't know how to describe it - it is beyond frustrating- labour has some of the best MP's Jess Phillips/David Lamy
They speak such sense , but nobody in their leadership listens to them..... it just fries my brain" I agree - such a waste!

umpteennamechanges · 31/01/2019 16:24

Re: Ministry of Silly Walks

🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ I'm mortified that they're making us look this spectacularly incompetent and idiotic on the world stage Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 31/01/2019 16:26

girlsblouse There was certainly no understanding that if May didn't have the guts to stand up to the ERG then she could come back and change the WA

That's not how international negotiations and relationship work
The UK is currently regarded as disfunctional, not just by EU countries

Once a govt leader signs something, it is extraordinary & humilating if they then have to come come and say they couldn't get it through their own legislature.
Countries outside the EU won't bother negotiating with the UK if they think the PM's signature is worthless

What is really infuriating the EU is that May voted against her own deal and encouraged her own MPs to do so
That is regarded as treacherous

prettybird · 31/01/2019 16:26

GirlsBlouse17 - we also "signed up" to the backstop arrangement back in December 2017, which was pre-requisite for going to Pahse 2 of the discussions. It was lauded as a breakthrough. Smile

....but then David Davis came back from Brussels saying that the UK didn't need to keep to it Hmm.

Hence why the EU now doesn't trust the UK one inch cm and insists on having every i dotted and every t crossed - and why the backstop cannot be time limited.

DGRossetti · 31/01/2019 16:29

coming back to the extension again, I'd be more than a little concerned that some MPs would regard it as getting them off the hook, somehow and lose, rather than gain focus.

(older readers might make more sense of the following if they can fire up in a tab Grin )

Also, day past 29th is another dagger to JRMs heart, surely ? He - and the ERG - have a lot invested in the UK not being a member of the EU after 29th March. So any extension isn't going to heal the Tory party anyway.

What would happen to UK MEPs if any are elected in the next session of the European parliament ? Does their seat go "poof" when the UK finally leaves ? Or would we see an even more surreal situation of there being 73 UK MEPs in the parliament with the UK no longer being a member ?

Spudlet · 31/01/2019 16:31

Also, day past 29th is another dagger to JRMs heart, surely?

You're working on the assumption that he has one...

Motheroffourdragons · 31/01/2019 16:31

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

prettybird · 31/01/2019 16:36

Just keep re-iterating that you are Scottish and that this is not being done in our name! Grin

Missbel · 31/01/2019 16:38

I thought I heard one of the EU spokesmen say in a Radio Interview that the UK's seats in the European Parliament had already been reallocated to other members - but I may have misunderstood.

Spudlet · 31/01/2019 16:43

AFAIK EP seats are allocated on the basis of a nation's population as a percentage of the overall EU population? I think that's how it works. I know it depends on population size anyway, which is why we have / had a large number of seats, as do Germany and France (the only two MSs with more seats than us actually, but yeah we're totally unrepresented Hmm). So I guess if it does depend on the population as a percentage of the whole EU population then there may be some rejigging of seats once the UKs population no longer counts towards that (Sad).

DGRossetti · 31/01/2019 16:45

So one option would be for the UK seats to be re-distributed pro-rota amongst the remaining members ?

mrslaughan · 31/01/2019 16:46

DGR and spudlet - maybe not his heart - but certainly his wallet.
It would make me unbelievably happy if he had hedged positions based on the 29th March and was completely screwed over by an extension.

Scandaloso · 31/01/2019 16:49

It would make me unbelievably happy if he had hedged positions based on the 29th March and was completely screwed over by an extension

Actual aphrodisiac.

1tisILeClerc · 31/01/2019 16:50

Meanwhile, in a trade discussion 'post Brexit':
UK: 'The name's Fox, Wherrity sniffer Fox'.
Foreign trader: 'Please excuse me Mr Fox, I will be back with you shortly'.
(disappears stage left to sounds of howling with laughter).

Member745520 · 31/01/2019 16:52

@Lucygoeswalkies

You are right. I never could get the hang of semaphore anyway. Quite happy to go along with your suggestion, and I'll pay for the stamp.

DGRossetti · 31/01/2019 16:53

More thinking aloud ...

Since the UK has demonstrated it's utterly incapable of working to any timescales, maybe any extension should be predicated upon an agreed criteria being met. Say agreement over the status of NI ?

That'd probably see us members until 2119.

Also, nothing agreed during the extension actually takes place until after the UK has left. Because otherwise we are back to cake ... and eat it.

Spudlet · 31/01/2019 17:01

mrslaughan I get a warm fuzzy feeling at the very thought 😊

DGRossetti · 31/01/2019 17:03

Once a govt leader signs something, it is extraordinary & humilating if they then have to come come and say they couldn't get it through their own legislature.

Used to be the preserve of "bongo-bongo" countries in Africa or South America ....

BigChocFrenzy · 31/01/2019 17:03

UK MEP seats have been reallocated for the new EP

However, the EU Commission - being adults who do contingency planning - organised back in January 2017 what to do if we're still hanging around

Provision for UK seats in 2019-2024 session of EP:

http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-7-2018-REV-1/en/pdf

.... "in the event that the United Kingdom is still a Member State of the Union at the beginning of the 2019-2024 parliamentary term,
the number of representatives in the European Parliament per Member State taking up office
shall be the one provided for in Article 3 of the European Council Decision 2013/312/EU1
until the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union becomes legally effective."

BigChocFrenzy · 31/01/2019 17:08

I'd always assumed the original 20xx date in the WA to end transition was to allow Barnier's 2099 guestimate of how long the UK would need

mrslaughan · 31/01/2019 17:08

So if we are still
Members we must all get out and vote!

Apileofballyhoo · 31/01/2019 17:16

Once a govt leader signs something, it is extraordinary & humilating if they then have to come come and say they couldn't get it through their own legislature.

And what does one call it when they themselves vote against the thing they signed?

PerverseConverse · 31/01/2019 17:18

@Apileofballyhoo

Fuckwittery. That's what they call it.

DGRossetti · 31/01/2019 17:19

So if we are still Members we must all get out and vote!

Personally I don't want an extension. This government has done nothing to deserve it, or (from where I sit) demonstrate it would use it wisely and for the good of all. That's quite aside from the attrition on the members of society - diabetics for example - who would just have to worry for that much longer. It would be an act of unspeakable cruelty.

That said, if the UK then had to take part in the EP elections (I bet Theresa May has already started motions to stop this) there are some really key points that could emerge ... firstly the democratic deficit between the "will of the people" in 2016 balanced against that same will in 2019 - especially if that will returned a significant majority of "Remain" MEPs.

The Tories would have to field (and pay for) their candidates ... or would they not stand ?

How would the selection process work anyway ?

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