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Brexit

Westminstenders: Waiting for a Valentines Miracle

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 23:50

Guess what folks, we get to do it all over again for Valentine's Day!

Bet you are all looking forward to that.

May has already been told by the EU its a non-starter, and with there being a vote scheduled again in a fortnight, there is little incentive for the EU to shift. And every incentive to just let us stew and think things over.

We are trying to renege on what we signed up to with the Withdrawal Agreement. Which only proves the EU needs the Backstop. Our credibility as a nation to do deals with is shot through the floor. With everyone but those who think they can stitch us up at least.

There is one key development with the latest vote:

The emergence of a new Brexit voting block within Labour, I believe led by Carole Flint. They are supporting Brexit and are prepared to vote with the government and against the Labour Whip.

This negates the Tory Rebel block, meaning May has a majority if she has the ERG on board - this being a big if, of course.

Many other potential rebels who threatened to quit from government, were detered from doing so by a promise from May and the promise that they had another show down on the 14th they could use to block No Deal.

In not quiting they are showing they are committed to some deal brokered by May and not an alternative by Parliament. This is important. There may be no realistic opportunity for anything else to be realistically be tabled by anyone else now.

I don't think they will quit now, if they can see a potential deal present itself.

The way forward now looks to be the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal only. Keep this in mind and in focus. This will become an increasing pressure and increasingly definitive. Revoke is still on the table, but I just can't see May doing it. Ever.

Whether May can get the EU to back down on the backstop seems unlikely. Its going to be more backwards and forwards on it. Before it becomes obvious its going nowhere. Its just theatre.

What the ERG do next is important. My best guess is they will split into No Deal Hardliners and last minute WA Compromisers. This will leave May short of a majority, but not as far as she has been especially with Labour resolve weakening. I think she may yet get her deal over the line with Labour support of some sort. Probably unofficial rather than direct from public instruction the front bench.

Here's the logic: Corbyn has said he will now discuss matter with her. He still wants to pin Brexit on her and destroy her, but he still wants Brexit and he still wants to keep the Labour Party together despite its differences over Brexit. All without making a clear Labour policy. How does he do this?

The same way he handled the Immigration Bill is possibly the best guess. Plus how can he stop his rebels...? {innocent face emojy} He gets to look tough against May outwardly and make lots of Remainy noises without more outward support for a particular policy. Those awful stupid Northerner MP (or MPs from backward towns if you live in the Metropolian North) who know nothing and screwed Remainia. It plays people off along splits in society, in the hope they don't notice Corbyn really orchestrated it. His MPs in leave areas get to look Leave without consequence, and if it all goes wrong he still get to pin it on May. Thus saving his marginals in both the North and the South 'cos those evil Tories'. And he does stop No Deal in the process. Yes, call me cynical, but thats how he could try and game it. Ultimately Corbyn and May do have certain aligned mutual interests, afterall.

And given there are few alternatives now there apart from Revoke or No Deal, once you think it through doesn't seem as far fetched as it initally sounds. Corbyn certainly seems to have form for it. His priorities are his Party, managing his north / south cultural divide and being seen to kick the Tories.

It'll go to the wire whatever happens, and its hard to see many ways out of this now. We are running out of time, opportunities and options. Of course, this works for May and has been her plan for some time. The question is merely, if she is serious about preventing no deal (and I believe she is) how she persuades either the ERG or Labour to back her.

Afterall, after the WA is done and dusted there is still everything to play for.

OP posts:
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Icantreachthepretzels · 30/01/2019 17:36

Ministers Think A Permanent Customs Union With The EU Is The Price For Solving The Backstop

But a permanent CU means we can't ever strike our own trade deals (oh no - our glorious trade deals!) which then raises the question ... why bother leaving?

prettybird · 30/01/2019 17:36

To be fair, when talking about the viability of the LibDems: people used to say that about the SNP. That it was impossible to overturn the the "monkey in a red rosette" mentality. confused]

Yet in 2015, the SNP did just that Grin: breaking the BBC's swingometers Shock. My own MP reversed a Labour 12,600 majority to an SNP majority of 12,200, with a swing of "8% Shock - and that wasn't the biggest swing of the night Shock (which, if you are interested, was 39% Shock)

The fact that the SNP ended up with 56 out of 59 MPs in Scotland meant nothing is a whole separate debate Wink (and even after 2017, they still have 35 out of 59 MPs and are the third largest party but still counts for nowt Hmm)

LonelyandTiredandLow · 30/01/2019 17:37

Have we had any news on what she talked about with JC?

Icantreachthepretzels · 30/01/2019 17:38

Even if the manifesto also said the Royal family had to self identify as Kardashians

Who wouldn't vote for this? We all need a chuckle after the past few grim years.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 17:39

Latest YouGov poll shows an SM+CU Brexit would have the most public support / acceptance

Westminstenders: Waiting for a Valentines Miracle
DGRossetti · 30/01/2019 17:42

But a permanent CU means we can't ever strike our own trade deals (oh no - our glorious trade deals!) which then raises the question ... why bother leaving?

That was my first thought, basically it's BINO.

I would be curious as to how that would pan out with the EU as a whole. I am sure they are looking well into the future and will want to ensure that whatever the deal for withdrawing is, it removes any chance the UK could kick off in future and do more harm.

Referring again to Humpty, we already know that "permanent" has it's own meaning in the Tory party dictionary which might surprise some.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 17:42

To be fair, the LDems and the pre-90s Liberal Party before them have always consistently supported membership of the EU

  • even though they've flipflopped on many other policies !
lonelyplanetmum · 30/01/2019 17:42

A vote for them is a wasted vote.

Its not a waste to vote LibDem when the alternative is a very ,very Brexity no deal Tory MP who only got his seat following a recount as there was only 45 votes between him and the LIbDem candidate in the last election.

BiglyBadgers · 30/01/2019 17:43

So do we have a new (or old option) back on the table. If May made a deal with Corbyn for a customs union then labour and Tories like my MP who will just do as told could get it through. However, it would mean leaving the ERG apoplectic so for that reason May might very well never do it.

lonelyplanetmum · 30/01/2019 17:44

Also can I be Lonelyplanet please ? Lonelyandtired gets abbreviated to Lonely too and it gets very confusing!

Greensleeves · 30/01/2019 17:45

lonelyplanetmum fair enough, of course it' sensible to vote for them in that scenario. I'd have to have a very hot shower afterwards though.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 17:45

Brexit now isn't about gaining any improvement over what we had - how could it ? -

Brexit is now about extracting the UK's arse from the crack where it is has trapped itself

Motheroffourdragons · 30/01/2019 17:48

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

DangermousesSidekick · 30/01/2019 17:49

PMK in increasing despair and disbelief Seen the bit about Barnier again saying that the backstop will not be negotiated?

I said it last thread, if the EU caves in and prioritises the spoilt children leavers of the UK over innocent Ireland, the EU will mean nothing.

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 17:49

noted; you have a cousin, so you are less lonely, but remain a strong & stable lonelyplanet

Greensleeves · 30/01/2019 17:49

I think personal loathing of Keziah Dugdale had a lot to do with Labour's demise in Scotland

lonelyplanetmum · 30/01/2019 17:50

If everyone said in polls they were converting to LibDem, even if they had to hold their nose to do so, that would be enough. Just a swing in the polls would bring about different voting patterns in Westminster.

The latest YouGov/ Times voting intention survey sees 39% saying they would vote Tory (from 41% in last week's survey) while 34% say they Labour (from 35%). Liberal Democrats are on 11% (unchanged) and votes for other parties stands at 16% (from 13%). I think the 11 % has been unchanged for months.Imagine if it leapt to 22% even in a poll?

DangermousesSidekick · 30/01/2019 17:53

I'm still not voting for the Lib Dems and their erasure of women.

If Labour got their act together and recognised that Brexit cannot work and said so, I would hold my nose and vote for them. They have also not been the best of friends to women just lately but I'll trust the party roots to balance the middle classes amongst them.

icannotremember · 30/01/2019 17:54

Latest YouGov^ poll shows an SM+CU Brexit would have the most public support / acceptance

Can you link to the poll please BigChoc? :)

prettybird · 30/01/2019 18:00

I agree mother - a lot all of it was to do with the Scottish Labour Party having taken its electorate for granted and the aftermath of the Indyref..... but aren't there parallels with what is happening in England? It can happen, if people want it to happen.

I never knew the SNP as Tartan Tories (although I know that is how some people remember them) - I've only ever met members of the SNP who are ex/disillusioned Labour Party members and have seen their policies as progressive left-wing ones. I'm probably influenced by having been doorstepped by Nicola back in 1997 though Grin I certainly wouldn't go near them if they were right wing! Smile ....but as I say to many people: the SNP are a means to an end. Once Scotland achieves her independence, people can vote for who the hell they like: which could include a re-invigorated Labour Part Smile no longer just a branch office of London and who knows, maybe an old-fashioned "One Nation" Tory Party which actually cares about the disadvantaged, albeit in a paternalistic way Wink, as well as LibDems Grin (The Scottish Greens are already a separate party)

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 18:01

Dangemouse About 0.1% chance of that....

So far, in 2 years, May only managed to woo the (far right) governments in Poland & Hungary

Since the votes last night:

  • The EU Commission immediately said No
  • Ireland, Germany, France, Austria, Portugal said no and other govts seem to be just pissed the Tories don't understand No
  • The leader of the EU Parliament said No AND the EP have repeatedly said they will not pass the WA without backstop

All 3 parts of the EU would have to agree to dropping the backstop ... and all 3 say No

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 18:04

Icannot Here's the YouGov poll with Anthony Wells analysis and charts:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/01/14/mps-prepare-brexit-vote-where-do-britons-stand

icannotremember · 30/01/2019 18:05

Thank you!

PerverseConverse · 30/01/2019 18:06

I've lost the plot with everything happening since last night and now have no idea what's going on Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 30/01/2019 18:08

Sam Coates Timess@SamCoatesTimes*

A government source said of the next phase of brexit discussion:

“I hope the PM is collecting air miles, because she won’t come back with much else.”