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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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lonelyplanetmum · 29/01/2019 10:22

The strike through of Cooper/ Boles was a typing mistake, but I fear it may be prophetic.

MsForestier · 29/01/2019 10:25

Wearily placemarking. Wine

lonelyplanetmum · 29/01/2019 10:27

This may help Sprouting it's definitely worth getting the waverers on board.

Also it's worthwhile emphasising the shift from Norway to No deal
People like Leaver Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan said w_ in 2015 that: "To repeat, absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market

DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 10:28

Well done, Tory party. You are rapidly rendering yourself unelectable.

I think there really is value in espousing the POV at every opportunity that if we have to have Brexit, then the destruction of the Tory party is a fair price. Because that's the one trajectory which appears to be having any leverage on May. Fuck the country (naturally). Fuck business (of course) Fuck the vulnerable (who wouldn't ?) Fuck your colleagues (noone does anything else) Fuck your constituents (it would only be news if you didn't).

But whatever it takes - do not risk the Tory party.

Ultimately, the wire will be the point when (hopefully not if) Theresa May proves to the ERG that Brexit will mean no Tory party from which they can continue. Hopefully the press are starting this.

(starts thinking on the move)

... which suggests that maybe a vote for Labour (or a promised vote for Labour Grin) might be the better tactic to get to revoke Hmm If there were to be an apparent groundswell suggesting that a GE would install a Corbyn government running Brexit with the Tories back to 1997 levels of popularity, I suspect A50 would be revoked by sundown.

Need to think about that. Might answer the next YouGov a bit differently.

What's the thinking out there ? Could a faux swing to Labour act as a sudden reverse thrust for Theresa May ?

Peregrina · 29/01/2019 10:29

Daniel Hannan talked on Newsnight about staying in the Single Market the night after the result was declared, much to Evan Davis's exasperation.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 29/01/2019 10:33

PMK

Sproutingcorm · 29/01/2019 10:36

Thank you for more extremely apposite "ammunition" Lonelyplanetmum; much appreciated!

Efferlunt · 29/01/2019 10:38

Thanks for your round up Red it’s so helpful. I’m still wrapping my head round this backstop stuff. Surely the backstop is required In order to comply with the GFA and our international commitments. When did we as a okay start to think it was okay to causally disregard them?!

Sproutingcorm · 29/01/2019 10:38

Actually that is truly shocking . And he's an MEP Shock ?

Efferlunt · 29/01/2019 10:38

As a country not okay!

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 29/01/2019 10:40

David Allen Green
‏*@davidallengreen*
Perhaps the most wonderful fact about Brexit is that the UK is set to leave the EU on the very same day Dumbo is released.

You too will believe Brexit can fly.

TheABC · 29/01/2019 10:42

@DGRossetti, the problem is that even if we had an indicative poll with support for Labour and the Daily Mail screaming "Tory traitors", it still would not be enough as we do not have a genuine opposition. May could just assume we had a new fondness for Corbyn's beard as he has also promised to Brexit. You would have to resurrect the Lib Dems as a genuine party of Government and that's not possible without a GE.

We are screwed. I am beginning to think Cooper's amendment is best we can hope for and that seems unlikely to be passed.

Hasenstein · 29/01/2019 10:58

.

Missbel · 29/01/2019 11:01

Thank you very much Red. It's hard to get my head round all these various options and their implications but what seems obvious is that, surprise, surprise, the EU don't want to play. Will they suddenly cave in because "they need us more than we need them?" Somehow doesn't seem very likely - if I'd managed to get 27 countries to agree unanimously to something, I wouldn't be planning to open it up again any time soon.

Having voted Liberal and then LibDem all my life, I'm now a floating voter. Under FPTP, they have to get a disproportionate increase in votes to win seats. I thought they mostly did a good job in the coalition in restraining the Tories, but Nick Clegg wasn't a match in political nastiness for Cameron and should never have supported the tuition fee increase. And now the Lib Dem MPs are a barely visible bunch - they don't inspire confidence.

LadyGregorysToothbrush · 29/01/2019 11:03

Placemarking on this useful thread to try and figure out what the hell is going on.

I’m in despair. Every so often I say “MARTIAL FUCKING LAW?!!” to myself. It’s just incredible that this is being considered.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 11:09

Thanks, red 💐

The madhouse amendment is so obviously the camouflaged ERG Brexit proposal,
that it only shows the ignorance of most politicians that any soft Brexit / Remainy Tories also support it

< sits Nicky Morgan in the Dunce's Corner for signing her name to it >

My favourite quote from the formidably clever Sabine Weyand in Brussels is that

a lot of the discussion of the withdrawal agreement in the UK was ^"uninhibited by any knowledge" 😂😱 of what it actually contained.

She has obviously been reading what MPs have been saying

Weezol · 29/01/2019 11:12

Fish rug.

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 11:12

Boris Johnson @ God I dislike this man
If the Prime Minister indicates in the debate that she will be pressing Brussels to reopen the WA to make changes to the backstop, I will gladly support the Brady amendment. But what we need is to achieve something legally binding - and that means part of the WA 1/2

We can’t have some codicil or letter or joint declaration. We need to go back into the text of the treaty and solve the problem. That is the way to unite remainers and leavers in the Conservative party and across the country 2/2

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 11:14

Norman Smith @ bbcnormans
Early indications ...@JacobReesMogg and other leading Brexiteers set to back down over opposition to Brady ammdt

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BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 11:16

From this side of the pond, I see the EU is getting increasingly exasperated with the arrogance & ignorance of both the UK govt and the whole "political class"

No point wrestling in the mud with pigs etc
Hence they are determined not to reopen 2 years of WA negotiations and the British-designed backstop

e.g.

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-swedish-foreign-minister-i-cannot-forgive-uk/

Margot Wallström, Sweden's foreign minister and a former European Commission vice president, lashed out today at Britain's political class
over its handling of the country's EU exit.
“I cannot forgive them for this,"
......
She called Britain's approach to the issue "dangerous" and "badly handled," adding
"I just think that they've made such a historical mistake and they've really created a problem for all of us."

Her comments, at a foreign policy conference in Helsinki, reflect a trend of increasingly harsh rhetoric from European politicians about their British counterparts.

Somerville · 29/01/2019 11:18

If confirmation were needed that 'new backstop' in Malthouse Amendement/Plan C wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on, then we have it...
Understand the DUP will announce its support for the Plan C mooted by Tory brexiteers and Remainers. (Norman Smith)
I've been researching, and it seems the mooted 'new backstop' is back to being the already discredited max fac/tech combo solution. Hmm
For those not already following the complexities of this backstop stuff, I'll quickly explain that within the WA there is space that if the tech gets invented and works well then the backstop won't kick in/can be lifted at that point. (The reality is that the kind of technogy being discussed does not exist. Not for a non-compliant population, with no border infrastructure.) So the EU are never going to agree to replace an actual backstop with one of the current options for what might work in the far future but which precisely requires a backstop in case it won't.

Scandaloso · 29/01/2019 11:22

.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 29/01/2019 11:22

PMK, thanks Red

And yay were on our way back to being its Corbyn's fault Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 11:23

If the DUP & ERG were so sure the magic border tech would be available in a couple of years, they'd agree to it for the Irish Sea instead

because it would be MUCH more feasible to install for a clear sea border - so ships & a few ports - than for a winding 500km border with over 200 cross points

They won't even consider it, which shows they know the future tech is just bollocks
They are lying, not ignorant

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 29/01/2019 11:28

PMK thanks so much for this thread not that I understand half of it