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Brexit

Westminstenders: Amendment Fail

977 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/01/2019 09:26

The EU's deputy chief negotiator Sabine Weyand said yesterday that there is a high risk of the UK crashing out of the EU without a deal by accident.

She also made a point of saying that the Withdrawal Agreement was shaped hugely by the parameters set by the UK and not the EU.

'We’re not going to reopen the Agreement. The result of the negotiation has been very much shaped by the UK negotiators, much more than they actually get credit for. This is a bit like snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. The backstop was very much shaped by UK.'

She also made the observation that
'In fact much of the conversation is uninhibited by any knowledge of what is actually in the WA.'

She reaffirmed the point that from the EU point of view that a time-limit to the Irish backstop defeated the purpose of having one. Remember the point of the backstop is to protect the integrity of the GFA.

Tonight is shaping up as follows:
Murrison II has been dropped in favour of the much more vague Brady Amendment. The government are now backing this, which would tie May into having to go back to the EU and talk about the backstop. Which if you refer to the above, was instigated and agreed to in no small part by May's own team.

The ERG are not happy about this, as they think they are being stitched up to be fully signed up to the WA.

The Brady amendment is being sold as enabling a mystery alternative solution. Which the government have said "well you'll have to vote for the amendment to find out what it is". Yes really.

This leaves the ERG split as to what to do. (Remember May needs pretty much a full house of support for a majority). And the DUP, after Sammy Wilson said today it was time for us to 'exploit the chaos of the EU', are also holding off making a decision.

The ERG then instead said that they will support an amendment by the PM herself which is crystal clear in its intent to remove the backstop and reopen the WA. Something May had ruled out. Then the ERG came up with the Malthouse Compromise and May has suddenly said that she will unilaterally reopen the WA.... Despite the EU ruling this out yesterday.

Remember Weyland said about the concept of Max Fac as an alternative to the backstop:
'We looked at every border on this earth, every border EU has with a 3rd country - there’s simply no way you can do away with checks & controls. The negotiators have not been able to explain them to us and that’s not their fault, it’s because they don’t exist.'

Before stressing:
'I still think the Political Declaration is a work of art because it bridges the unbridgeable and it leaves choices open. It doesn’t pretend to be able to make choices that have not been made in the UK. That’s the area where we do have room for manoeuvre.'

In other words, this is all in OUR hands to work out between ourselves and not the EU. We STILL have to decide what we want. But it STILL has to answer certain questions and issues that the EU have.

As far as numbers stand, the latest for the Brady was that between 20 (according to the gov whips) and 40 (according to the ERG) ERG rebels were holding out, whilst up to 10 remain tories are thinking of rebelling. Thats not anywhere near enough for May without large numbers of Labour rebels. BUT that was before the Malthouse Compromise came out.

Meanwhile the Cooper-Boles amendment has finally got a three line whip supporting it from Labour. But there is no word on what Tories might do. The last word on numbers was that there were just 3 votes in it - so it needs ALL MPs even the lazy ones to show up. Its proper squeaky bum time on that one. It even raises the possibility of the spectacle of the Speaker voting. And as previously mentioned if it passes as well as Brady it becomes sticky as to how it would work, the EU might not go for it anyway and it doesn't necessarily stop No Deal is certain situations.

In reality the worst outcome from the amendment votes today would be that nothing passes. It doesn't move us forward in anyway. Even Brady passing would lead us somewhere rather than the state of purgatory we are currently mired in.

Might the new 'Maltman Compromise' between Mogg, Morgan and Baker complete with its 'frontstop' instead of backstop and its magic new protocol which everyone will agree to but is completely be devoid of detail, be the way forward instead? Boris Johnson has declared it a breakthrough.

Of course not. Its best described as everyone's unicorns strapped together and its complete lack of compatibility with the EU's criteria make it a time wasting exercise just to make the Tories feel good about themselves and united in their belief that the EU is being mean to them.

Its almost as if those writing the Malthouse Compromise didn't understand what the EU have been saying all along...

In reality its a political device to whip May with and to waste time and to try and frame the EU as bad guys once again, not a serious proposal. But with widespread support within the Tory party May is going to find it hard to kill it off, even when the EU do.

If you weren't already going cross eyed by this point, this should finish you off. The Brady Amendment is vague enough to accomodate the Malthouse Compromise within it. Which might be the thing that gets the Brady Amendment through in the end anyway. Who knows?

If you've managed to follow all this even vaguely, then you are doing well. Please do ask questions if you are confused as hell, we'll all try and make some sense of it together!!!

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SusanWalker · 29/01/2019 14:37

Some one else just used the word nebulous. Trolling her to her face.

Somerville · 29/01/2019 14:38

May: 'Alternative arrangements - which have already been accepted by the EU as a potential way out of the backstop'
Yes, but NEEDING a backstop in case we never find those alternatives. As then was explained clearly by Caroline Lucas.

SusanWalker · 29/01/2019 14:38

There is no substance in anything she's saying. Or not that I can tell.

FloralCup · 29/01/2019 14:41

I assume there are discussions going on in the background with the EU - yeah? As in, someone must have said they'd be willing to renegotiate on a few things? Because if not, how does the government know what they finally agree on will be acceptable to the EU.
Government could agree to delay by 9 months - EU could say "no way".

Somerville · 29/01/2019 14:43

The only thing that is significant/changed which I've noticed, Susan is her no longer standing up for the backstop of her/her advisors design.

'The time has come for words to be replaced with deeds.'

Hmm The deed being voting for an amendment to reopen the WA which the EU have already explicity ruled out.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 14:43

Well I would have thought so Floral but it doesn't seem to be the case?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 14:44

birdy "alternative arrangements to avoid a hard border" just means the magic technology that doesn't exist
Hence why they won't consider it for the Irish Sea border, just the NI border

BlueEyeshadow · 29/01/2019 14:45

Floral Cup "I assume there are discussions going on in the background with the EU - yeah? As in, someone must have said they'd be willing to renegotiate on a few things? Because if not, how does the government know what they finally agree on will be acceptable to the EU.
Government could agree to delay by 9 months - EU could say "no way"."

Um, no. The EU has already said "no way" lots of times, loudly and repeatedly.

umpteennamechanges · 29/01/2019 14:45

Some of our MPs are dicks aren't they? One backbencher just interrupted a speech to say something that was just an unnecessary dick move and added nothing whatsoever Hmm

SalrycLuxx · 29/01/2019 14:46

Maybe If they say it using interpretative dance, the message would get through?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 14:48

Whenever I snarl at NI for sending us 10 MPs to DUPE the govt,
I remind myself they also sent Sylvia Hermon, whom I have long respected as a rational moderate NI Unionist voice.

Now with Brexit going on too, she positively shines compared to nearly all Tory & Labour MPs too
I disagree with some of her views, but such a relief to find an MP who is actually sensible, decent and brave, doing her best for her constituents

Somerville · 29/01/2019 14:48

Because if not, how does the government know what they finally agree on will be acceptable to the EU.
There will be all sorts of backroom conversations going on. But the EU keep explicity and loudly saying that the backstop is one that was specially designed to fit around the UK's red lines and that they won't reopen the WA to renegotiate it.

Other people say different, but I think the EU might accept a delay of a few months to try to avoid no deal. I don't think Coooper would be putting it forward if she didn't have that indication - she's very well informed.

ilovesooty · 29/01/2019 14:50

Know your place - that told him.

Eatmycheese · 29/01/2019 14:51

If we remove no deal from the sacrificial altar that is Brexit then we have no bargaining power left under the shitty deal May has cooked up.
The EU can veto the deal. They can’t veto us saying there is no deal.
If this happens the Irish are stuffed well and truly and I have started to wonder if the EU will actually follow through on the assertion that they will create a hard border between EU Ireland and non EU Northern Ireland. Will the EU then be as responsible as no Deal Britain for the inevitable recommencement Troubles and the violation of the Good Friday Agreement.
Then if there is No Deal and this happens May is doomed since the DUP will walk.

This is some hideous sort of algebraic equation.
Will we be reduced to living off tinned food and instead of calpol, be cold compressing our children’s fevered brows?

Perhaps Corbyn is right to do diddly squat?
Am I driving anyone else as mad as myself?

1tisILeClerc · 29/01/2019 14:51

The EU team have said previously that VERY minor amendments might be considered, on the basis that 27 countries have to have been involved and reconsidered all legal implications of any change there will not be much if any 'wiggle' on the WA.
The fact that they repeated yet again no amendments only a couple of hours before today's discussions is pretty clear.

PestymcPestFace · 29/01/2019 14:55

I do wonder if they have read and comprehended the WA

If at any time after the transition period, the EU or the UK considers that the backstop, in whole or in part, is no longer necessary, it may notify the other party, setting out its reasons. The Joint Committee [as established in Article 164 of the Withdrawal Agreement] will consider the notification and may seek an opinion from institutions created by the Good Friday (Belfast) Agreement 1998. Following discussions in the Joint Committee, the EU and the UK may decide jointly that the Protocol, in whole or in part, is no longer necessary to achieve its objectives.

europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-18-6423_en.htm

The backstop will end when it is not longer deemed necessary (by both parties).

FloralCup · 29/01/2019 14:56

I thought the EU wanted us out before the EU elections in May.
I wonder if Farage will stand again?

OhYouBadBadKitten · 29/01/2019 14:56

It's very educational is Brexit. Through it today, I've learned about abusive stoats and the word 'nugatory' which the finance minister used this morning to describe spending money on no deal prep if we end up miraculously with a deal after all.

1tisILeClerc · 29/01/2019 14:56

If I were the EU negotiating team I would not want the UK to remain. It is a liability as it has shown no sign of doing anything remotely sensible in 2 1/2 years.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 14:57

Floral The Tory party is fighting / negotiating with itself only.
EU sources here (Germany) say no EU-UK negotiating whatsoever is going on

No back channels either, because the issue is so clear:
the UK side wants to remove the backstop - that May promised and then signed off
The EU refuse
They'll give helpful words of good intentions, but nothing that the UK could use as a legal getout from the backstop

The EU won't betray a member country, Ireland, to help save a political party in a leaving country from the disaster it started

derxa · 29/01/2019 14:57

If this happens the Irish are stuffed well and truly and I have started to wonder if the EU will actually follow through on the assertion that they will create a hard border between EU Ireland and non EU Northern Ireland. Will the EU then be as responsible as no Deal Britain for the inevitable recommencement Troubles and the violation of the Good Friday Agreement. This is the bit I don't understand. But then my understanding is poor Sad

1tisILeClerc · 29/01/2019 15:02

{I wonder if Farage will stand again?}
I hope that following investigations into his 'activities' that he would be automatically excluded. He probably would be under EU 'ruling' but I have a feeling that the selection of MEPs is an individual country's choice so the EU may not be able to prevent him. I am presuming the investigations into Farage, Banks and co will disappear into the long grass so won't get anywhere anytime soon.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/01/2019 15:04

EatMyCheese
The EU wouldn't be "choosing" to apply a NI border
WTO rules require them to have an external goods border around EU territory

The alternative would be dissolving the Single Market and hence the EU

WTO rules also require the UK to either have a border with the RoI or no trade borders with any country in the world (until Liam Fox gets all those EU trade deals replaced - don't hold your breath there)

The Brexiter favourite / only economist recommends the UK have open trade borders with the world,
but this means no protections for British goods

  • he says this means the destruction of the UK manufacturing and farming sectors, but that this is acceptable damage
DGRossetti · 29/01/2019 15:06

I do wonder if they have read and comprehended the WA

As with most stupid people, there is an element of low cunning there.

They obviously haven't bothered to comprehend the whole thing. All they know is that once enacted, the WA requires the EU and RoI to agree that the backstop is not needed before the UK can leave the Customs Union. Ironically the more of a fuss they make about the backstop now, the higher the chances the EU and RoI will want to be 110% sure before agreeing the backstop can go in future.

(is my understanding)

I think it's dawning on even the most rapacious Brexiteer now that - as per comments last week - even their beloved no-deal isn't going to give them what they want. In the event of a no deal, no country is going to be able to sign up unless and until the NI situation is nailed in legal terms. And that can't be simply by saying "fuck the GFA"

It's easy to forget, trapped in the UK, but there are a lot of countries that the UK wishes to do deals with, and a lot of those have governments that need to justify their decisions to their voters. I really can't see a Canadian government (for example) rushing up to sign an international agreement with a country that so publicly pisses all over international agreements.

Just because the UK is happy to do business with repressive regimes, doesn't mean others are - as the UK slides into being a repressive regime.

prettybird · 29/01/2019 15:07

It is the UK which has chosen to leave the EU.

It is the UK which has chosen to leave both the Single Market and the Customs Union.

It is the UK which has chosen that that red line means that the whole of the UK has to be in a temporary CU.

It is the UK which has chosen to listen to the minority DUP party rather than the majority in NI and as a result refused to even consider the option of a "border" in the Irish Sea.

These are all CHOICES by the UK Government.

This clusterfuck is the responsibility of the UK Government.

Any border which needs to be put into the island of Ireland because there will be a land border between the EU and a non-EU country as a consequence of the UK choosing to leave the EU is entirely the responsibility of the UK Government.