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Brexit

Westminstenders: Stalemate

958 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/01/2019 20:54

After May's Meaningless Vote defeat and Corbyns Pointless Vote for Your Own Party defeat we are well and truly at Stalemate.

May has invited other parties to come and talk to her to find a compromise. Except she has so many red lines all she is asking is for everyone else to compromise whilst she gets exactly what she wants.

Corbyn made a tactical error in not initially speaking to May, so now she gets to say that its Labour who are being difficult and not wanting to work together in the national interest.

Corbyn has in addition put down the red line of saying he won't talk to May until she agrees to drop no deal. Except since no deal is the default until an alternative solution is agreed! Corbyn is expecting May to say that she would revoke if there was no alternative agreed, whilst is isn't really reasonable from a compromise point of view.

They are as bad as each other. Both too stubborn for the country to move forward. Its long been said that they were alike in this respect, but having it put to the test about which is more stubborn has the potential to destory the country in the process.

In addition to this, Leadsom has removed all other Brexit related HoC business from the schedule until after the 29th January. This is a blantant attempt to try and stop backbenchers having the opportunity to table pesky amendments which the government don't like.

The 29th January is due to be the Meaningless Vote II. Given that May has made it clear that in her head 'compromise' means 'do exactly what I want and capitulate' it looks like the Withdrawal Agreement will be represented to parliament to vote on with little change. Perhaps with a few amendments there designed to attract support, though it remains to be seen where this support will come from given the spectulator level of the rejection the HoC gave it. May's Plan is literally to run the clock down and hold a gun of no deal to the head of remain leaning MPs or to scare Brexiteers by suggesting that she might revoke or there might be an extension.

Its beyond farce.

Of course the role of the Speaker becomes paramount.

Technically speaking no bill can be presented to the HoC twice in the same parliament. Its against the rules. So how is May going to get around this, and will the Speaker indeed allow it?

The Speaker may also try and help backbenchers out by allowing amendments and motions to be tabled outside the normal rules. Normally the government alone control the majority of parliamentary time, with the opposition parties being given so many debates depending on whether they are the official opposition and then according to their size. Backbenchers don't tend to get much parliamentary time. However the Speaker's actions last week showed he was willing to be creative and bend the rules to allow backbenchers more influence and power than under normal circumstances because of the way that the Executive was trying to frustrate the house. So not timetabling any further Brexit Business between now and the 29th January seems a sure fire way to have the Government straight on course for another run in with Bercow.

So what next:

Do not forget that whatever happens May has to agree to it, or we go to no deal. Whether that be a 2nd Ref, Revoking, Staying in the Customs Union, Norway + or Any Other Alternative May has to agree to it on some level.

Backbenchers can table amendments all day long to 'guide' or put pressure on May but they may not be able stop her ultimately. Boles, Grieve, Benn and Cooper seem to be the ones to watch.

So May's stubborness is the biggest barrier and issue there is to preventing No Deal.

Corbyn, whilst he might well be very right to avoid getting sucked into May's trap, isn't helping matters with his own stubborness. His priority is party politics and stopping the Labour Party from splitting. Not solving Brexit.

There is not a shread of pragmatism nor thought for the national interest between them. Party before Country.

So we are to go through all of the last week, possibly with another vote of no confidence thrown in for good measure in another 12 days.

Won't that be fun?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
52
Icantreachthepretzels · 19/01/2019 21:21

How long does it take to deselect and then select a candidate? There must be some kind of process - can the sitting mp appeal? And - given a five week turnaround, would a new candidate have time to get their campaign leaflets published and get around the constituency getting their face known?

If a well known name like Soubry, Clarke or Bercow stood (as independents) against a hurriedly selected non-entity picked purely to toe the party line - the tories might lose a few seats that way.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/01/2019 21:22

Finlan O'toole analyses extension possibilities / issues

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1024109/?twitterr_impression=true

In the aftermath of the vote, France and Germany sought a formal meeting of EU ambassadors to address the question of a possible extension of Article 50.
The Romanian Presidency was reluctant to go that far, so an informal meeting was called instead.

In fact, at the prompting of Martin Selmayr, officials from both the European Commission, and then the European Council, under the guidance of Jeppe Tranholm-Mikkelsen, have already been meeting informally, road-testing the legal implications of a request from London.

"The reflection has started," confirmed a senior EU official.
"Even if nothing is requested we have to prepare our legal thinking.
We need to know in what kind of legal framework we’re operating."

That will be critical.
At the end of May the European Elections take place
and the new parliament will be formally constituted on 2 July.

So, an extension up to 1 July would be a safe option.

But beyond that, according to several sources, there could be legal problems.
So long as the UK remains a member state the EU treaties safeguard its right, and the right of its citizens, to be represented.
"After 2 July anything that the new parliament did without UK delegates would very likely be illegal,"^
....
It’s understood that officials have considered making any longer extension conditional on the UK taking part in European Parliament elections – even if they were held separately, say, in September.

This is partly political.
Any signal that the EU were reluctant to let British candidates take to the campaign trail would be jumped on by UKIP, who would seek to capitalise if and when British participation was eventually approved.

But an extension in itself is treacherous for political reasons, not least because there could be the bizarre scenario of the UK holding Euro elections while at the same time preparing for a second referendum or a general election.Confused
.....
But the growing consensus in Brussels is that an extension request would be viewed favourably,
so long as it was to facilitate a clear plan that was somehow bolted together using bits and pieces from the floor of the Westminster workshop.
< but if no plan can be bolted together, maybe extend until 1 July to give time for No Deal prepping ?
Maybe even to mid-August, because afaik, MEPs don't actually start significant work - debating, voting - until late August >

Hazardswans · 19/01/2019 21:22

what purpose is there in taking the UK close to a civil war?

Living out a fantasy. Some people, a small minority, have been campaigning for a devastating Brexit and prepping over this scenario for 20+ years. It's not just tins of beans, it's protecting my property/family kind of stuff.

1tisILeClerc · 19/01/2019 21:25

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46933720

Sorry can't do pictures.
'Going to Specsavers'!

BigChocFrenzy · 19/01/2019 21:30

pretzels afaik, the Tories could easily deselect a sitting MP within the available time

Central office has a pool of approved candidates to parachute in
and the local party might have someone too, who could be vetted quickly.

No appeal rights - it's not a regular job

BUT
they could lose the seat if the sitting MP stood as an indie and was sufficiently popular to either win, or split the vote

Depends how angry / tolerant the local party are

Bercow sounds in the most danger, because he could actually make a nig difference in the final outcome,
by enabling MPs - if they chose - to overrule the executive with soft Brexit / extension 7even Revoke

borntobequiet · 19/01/2019 21:32

Real motives:

  1. unforced error of a dysfunctioning democracy. It was all bound to go tits up at some point
  2. forced error of same. Adversary (eg Putin) sees weakness and exploits it with psy-ops and so on
  3. combo of both I like tennis terms and will endeavour to use them extensively in future.
PerverseConverse · 19/01/2019 21:32

Bercow for PM? He'd get this mess sorted.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/01/2019 21:35

There you are, leclerc
An alpalca wandered into a French optician .... 😂

Westminstenders: Stalemate
Loletta · 19/01/2019 21:39

Trade expert Dmitry Grozoubinski explains:

1/ "How can No-Deal cause disruption at Dover/Calais if only 1% of trucks will be physically inspected?"

For all the scoffing by Remainers, this is a valid question and the answer is far from intuitive.

I'll try to explain through the only medium I know: the tortured analogy.

2/ Have you ever flown into Heathrow or Gatwick airport?

You might recognize a scene like this.

A very long line full of foreigners, moving slowly forward while the UK and EU citizens line moves far more quickly beside it.

3/ As a British citizen, you only need one document to pass border control: your passport.

Being a foreigner only adds two required documents: a visa (sometimes) and a landing card. However, these documents and the greater level of scrutiny they suffer make all the difference.

4/ Arriving at Heathrow, even if my visa is valid, my passport correct and my landing card flawlessly filled in, my interaction with customs lasts several minutes longer than that of a UK citizen.

I get asked some questions. A determination is made about how truthful I've been.

Why is one moving faster than the other?

5/ The same thing will happen when trucks moving between the UK and EU are suddenly required to carry, present and have scrutinized the additional documentation leaving the Single Market entails.

More documents. More scrutiny. More time. Always.

6/ As everyone from government reports to port operators and the Road Haulage Association have warned, these extra few minutes per truck risks grinding the crossing to a crawl.

7/ The 1% customs inspections refers to physically checking the contents of a truck, not these basic documentary checks which will apply to everyone.

At Heathrow, I presume less than 1% face the visa equivalent: an extended interview/discussion/interrogation with Border Force.

8/ What about pre-filling forms online and technological solutions?

Well, UK airports do have a registered traveller program. I submitted a form online, waited a while to be vetted, paid an annual fee and can now use the electronic gates.

Seems like a great solution, right?

9/ Not quite.

The trade equivalent of registered traveler is called 'Authorized Economic Operator.'

It can take months to register, the costs are very high and few firms can meet the requirements.

10/ But surely other countries who aren't in Single Markets with their neighbors manage this?

They do. Most will tell you it sucks, but they manage. Norway and Sweden, Switzerland and the EU, they all endure the delays this causes.

The difference is volume and disruption.

11/ The sheer scale of truck based transport between the UK and EU makes this problem terrifying.

Beyond that, the UK economy has evolved over the last few decades with frictionless trade embedded into its DNA in a way other economies haven't.

12/ Cars can be built to work just fine without computers in them, but try ripping the computer out of a modern car designed around it and see how far you get.

That's what ending the Single Market overnight is.

Hazardswans · 19/01/2019 21:41

"He was not aggressive at all, just doing his thing." It's an adorable alpaca they're not exactly known for their agression 😂

SwedishEdith · 19/01/2019 21:41

Bercow has a massive majority. Presume Buckingham votes Tory regardless but, I suspect he's personally popular? What area would Buckingham be in for ref result? Milton Keynes? Pretty much bang on the national result.

Ellie56 · 19/01/2019 21:44

OhLookHeKickedTheBall

Love it!Grin Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 19/01/2019 21:51

loletta I read (R North ?) that the inspection rate for 3rd countries is fixed as a % by WTO rules
and depends on the type of goods
So for some things might be 1%
For others might be 100% / 20% / 10% etc

and then there might be trucks with mixed goods

SusanWalker · 19/01/2019 21:57

Although if they get deselected they might think fuck this and take a job abroad nd avoid the mess.

Apparently Andrea Jenkyns is not popular in her constituency. I would love to see some of the ERG have a Portillo moment. I think Uxbridge weren't very impressed with Boris dodging the Heathrow vote either.

Loletta · 19/01/2019 21:58

BCF absolutely
He also says "Vet checks are a whole other nightmare I didn't go into. The rate there risks being 50-100% depending on the product"
In response to "For some products (e.g. meat) physical check rate could be higher. Only NZ (lamb) enjoys 1% rate and that was earned over time. UK unlikely to get this initially, might get 10% (Canada for beef), still better than 20% default, but highly problematic..."

SusanWalker · 19/01/2019 22:02

In fact I would piss myself laughing if Boris has had a new haircut, slimmed down and spent years angling for the leadership and then loses his seat at the election.

Hazardswans · 19/01/2019 22:09

www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/live-yellow-vest-right-wing-15701553.amp

Yellow vests in Leeds

Summary
Here is a summary of the main things that happened today:

Protesters gathered on Duke Street near the BBC Yorkshire building at midday
Counter demo protesters were also at the march
The march went up The Headrow, snaked down Vicar Lane and Boar Lane and into City Square before heading back to outside BBC Yorkshire. Traffic was disrupted during the march and buses had to be diverted.
At points, protesters were seen clashing with police officers
Yellow vest marchers were also seen chanting far-right references
West Yorkshire Police confirmed that six people were arrested during the demonstration

SwedishEdith · 19/01/2019 22:14

In the words of David Allen Green, I'd laugh like a drain if Johnson lost his seat. Only 5.000 in it. Steve Baker is vulnerable as well - oops.

nicoala1 · 19/01/2019 22:16

Just wondered how an extension until 1 July might work here.

Surely UK candidates for EU Parliament would be voted in (or rejected) at that point?

Revoke now is my advice to TM. Get it done and walk away and let someone else deal with it. But I am not sure if revoke requires a vote in HoC? Does anyone know...

I do realise that the law says UK will leave on 29th March, so there could be other legal implications or God Forbid a Constitutional Crisis if A50 is revoked.

Anyway, if it is any consolation, we are living through history now, and will be able to tell our little kids when they grow up all about it.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/01/2019 22:22

Any Leavers still Beleaving the Germans / EU public will force the EU to make concessions because ....
@welt poll is what I'd expect:

StefanieBolzen@StefanieBolzen
Exclusive:
German public not keen for EU to give Britain better #Brexit deal.

55pc oppose offering concessions
67pc have no sympathy for Brexiters' position
And 83pc think that a #Dexit is completely out of question

Westminstenders: Stalemate
BigChocFrenzy · 19/01/2019 22:27

Nicola Extension until 1 July would avoid the need for the Uk to hold EP elections, because the MEPs would not actually come to the EP until then

In fact, in practice, afaik MEPs would not actually debate or vote on bills etc until late AUgust
So if the EU are mainly worried about the legality of any laws passed without the UK (while still a member) then extension to mid-Aug looks possible.

However, that is pushing it and I expect any extension longer than to 1 July would need real justification to recive assent from all 27 heads of govt

nicoala1 · 19/01/2019 22:31

Thanks BC.

I suppose my thinking is, will potential MEPs accept that they cannot be candidates? UK would still be in EU until any extension expires.

Sigh... another headache perhaps.

RedToothBrush · 19/01/2019 22:32

@red Thoughts on Emergency Powers while Parliament is dissolved ?

It would be rather convenient, wouldn't it.

WTF has happened today? I've had a quiet one and not logged in once. Just went to check tomorrows newspapers and see car bomb in londonderry then read back a few pages and frankly wish I hadn't logged on as I fancied an early night!

This summer is going to be fun...

OP posts:
nicoala1 · 19/01/2019 22:35

SwedishEdith,

He will probably get a landslide victory. OMG. This is where we might be heading now.

The headbangers with nothing to say will run the country with plummy voices and nothing else.

PerverseConverse · 19/01/2019 22:35

It's kicking off in NI and Leeds. Not good.