Westminstenders: Plan B is Plan A again.

[RedToothBrush]

The voting starts around 7pm and is expected to finish up between 8pm and 8.20pm.

May is expected to lose. The question is by how much.

We are then expecting an immediate motion of no confidence in the government by Labour to be put forward.

May is expected to make a speech to calm the markets and then go to Brussels for an utterly pointless visit.

The Labour No Confidence is expected tomorrow afternoon after PMQs. Its expected to fail.

We move no closer to a resolution and ever closer to no deal.

Half the Cabinet want to go into cross party talks. Half the Cabinet don't.

May is apparently insistent that Plan B is Plan A. Which is what you would expect her to tell the house to comply with Grieve IV. Which again is bollocks.

But Bercow could yet refuse to indulge it.

If Plan B is Plan A again, then what's Plan C?

Crisis with a Capital C.

The stalemate grows.

belligerance

Belligerence.

Ironically the EU have played nice. I am extremely impressed by the top brass of the EU - their intelligence, acuity, patience and fair play. So I’ve got a more positive perception of the EU now than when I started.

Please give me an example of this. An actual detailed example.

I know this wasn't aimed at me but I have been impressed by the way the EU has managed to come to a consensus between all of its remaining member countries on how to proceed and that this consensus has included real effort to protect Ireland and the border. Their support of Ireland throughout the negotiations has shown how they are willing to stand firm and protect the interests of their members and that all countries will stand by this decision once made.

Contrast that with the UK who can't even come up with a single unified idea of what we want and many of whom seem happy to dump the Good Friday Agreement and leave NI in a whole lot of heap of trouble.

Equinanimity

Equanimity.

Sorry I’m typing too fast!

My point was that politicians are the servants of the people not the other way round whatever institution they are working in.

I agree, but you also suggested that they were not acting in the people's best interests and I'm wondering what makes you think that.

{I agree, but you also suggested that they were not acting in the people's best interests and I'm wondering what makes you think that.}
That is very easy to answer.
What are the REAL issues in the UK?
Inequality, abandonment of former industrial areas and much more.
What are they arguing about? Whether the UK should stop being a member of the EU, which costs the UK 0.7% of GDP, and in the process make a Million or more unemployed, trash the industries that are here and yet not even acknowledge the fact that the real problems exist.
The peole's best interests are NOT being served, and worse, the politicians actions are making things far more difficult.

But thats not the EU's fault, 1tisIleclerc. The EU is trying to do the best it can in the conversation that has been set by the UK government.

I know I didn't make it clear in my post but I was really wondering was derxa felt the EU was doing that was not acting in the best interests of the people it served.

Not brexit related but Vicky Ford has tabled her prohibition of low level letterboxes motion. She is currently my hero. And yes, I'm struggling to find any positives right now in much so I'm taking what I can get!

I'm avoiding it Mrs8.

My point was that politicians are the servants of the people not the other way round whatever institution they are working in

I agree, and I think too many of them forget this too often, but in this specific case it comes across as if you think the EU negotiators have not been working in the interests of EU citizens (EU27 citizens, that is) and I'm curious why you believe this.

The EU negotiators have, notably, put the interests of people in Ireland and EU citizens in the U.K. ahead of other interests.

In comparison the U.K. negotiators have shown scant regard for the people of NI and for Britons in Europe.

I'm not suggesting the EU is all sweetness and light - far from it, and I disagree with Tatiana here (I think the concessions made by the EU were made because they were in the EU's best interests) - but they have had more regard for the people most affected by Brexit than the U.K. govt.

Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
Hearing Dominic Grieve is about to present a bill that would put another referendum on the table

Moving on, can anyone speculate what magic words Theresa May will (or indeed can) use to unlock an extension to A50.

Because from my reading, she's putting it out there like it's a given - the most natural thing in the world to happen.

What's going to happen when it hits the EUs deep desire not to extend - even to avert a no deal ?

Or am I just being "too negative" and not focussing on the upside(s) ?

Also, what's the score with the Grieve amendment requiring a new deal within 3 days (or whatever ?) ?

Moving on, can anyone speculate what magic words Theresa May will (or indeed can) use to unlock an extension to A50.

My understanding was that the EU would consider an extension if there was a PV, GE or if a clear deal was agreed and time was needed to put it in place. So May would need to present one of these for an extension to have any chance of being agreed.

So if she thinks she can just roll up and demand an extension because parliament can't decide what it wants she's back on the unicorn dust again.

My opinion of the EU has shot up as pp have said
hugely because of how loyal they have been to member Ireland

The cold calculating interests of the other 26, particularly those most affected by Brexit - France, NL, Spain, Germany - could have led them into bullying Ireland to forget the backstop and just accept whatever checks were necessary to get a WA through

They didn't.
Total 🏅🏅 for that loyalty to 5 million irish people out of the 450 million EU

Also, the contrast between 27 countries agreeing a policy
and negotiating it in a polite, highly professional way without expecting to break WTO or MFN rules
AND knowing all the tech stuff about where its interests lie
A big 🏅 for that too^
That's why the EU is an economic superpower - it's not just size.

Contrast that with the UK continually squabbling with itself and the chief negotiators not understanding how international trade & travel and the WTO works,
not understanding how essential to the UK all the EU agencies & facilities are like EURATOM, galileo etc
not even knowing where a sizable proportion of our food comes from !

And of course the disgusting hate speech by UK Brexiters against the EU: comparing them to Hitler, the USSR etc
The EU didn't do that

I won|t give them a 🏅 because that is basiic civilised behaviour, but I give a huge 💩💩 to the UK side

I'm confused by extension talk DG EU would for a PV or GE but just for more fannying? Having said that, just learnt of meds France gets via UK. French patients are panicking, UK patients are panicking. Will the EU extend for the sake of citizens interests even though the UK is the one jeopardizing?

I agree, but you also suggested that they were not acting in the people's best interests and I'm wondering what makes you think that. I didn't suggest that. I meant they have an elitist outlook on life.

And this of course
international.sp.nl/nieuws/2018/07/foul-smell-of-corruption-in-brussels

I think Grieve wasn't specific enough in his amendment calling for Plan B , as May seems to think that a simple crossing out "Plan A" and inserting "Plan B" and presenting that on Monday will meet the requirement of that amendment

She 'only' just lost by 230 votes apparently fml

{Will the EU extend for the sake of citizens interests even though the UK is the one jeopardizing?}
The EU's 'no deal' plan makes it clear that they will do whatever is in the EU's interests to help the EU. If it helps the UK then count it as a bonus.

Of course there will be corruption in the EU, the same as everywhere else and although it ought to be minimised it will never go away.
UK arms sales to the likes of Saudi Arabia and others, suspect deals all over the place. I don't know about Balfour Beatty specifically, but the construction industry is well in with suspect government contracts and for some reason 'affordable homes' aren't getting built, I wonder why?
The 'moral high ground' doesn't really exist below the knees, there is always a muddy footpath.

derxa You think our politicians don't have an "elitist" outlook, don't fiddle their expenses, don't ward dodgy comtracts to theri chums at both govt and local level ?

Big difference is:
which side thinks making a big score justifies having putting food and essential meds at risk for those who aren't wealthy like them ?

Which side has the greatest social & wealth inequality ?

I'm confused by extension talk DG EU would for a PV or GE but just for more fannying? Having said that, just learnt of meds France gets via UK. French patients are panicking, UK patients are panicking. Will the EU extend for the sake of citizens interests even though the UK is the one jeopardizing?

If I were the EU, I would use the fact I am the EU to remove the UK from such situations outlined about wherever possible. Otherwise what's it all been for. Moreover, I suspect the French government will find itself with a lot of friends - like Ireland - should they be needed. Remember, the rhetoric of some Brexiteers about pulling the whole house down on top of us all hasn't gone unnoticed, or unactioned.

Any one EU country has immediate and unfettered access to the expertise and resources of the other 26 members. The UK only has ... well the UK really.

Besides, thanks to Brexit a few UK pharmaceutical companies have stopped manufacture and thus prompted alternatives to be sourced.

You can also bet your bottom dollar that situations such as that above have been anticipated by the EU and if not solved, certainly put on a list somewhere. I really can't see Juncker suddenly announcing he had no idea Dover was only 22 miles from Calais.

derxa The wealthiest Brexit backers are HOPING Britain does badly, because they hvae literally bet on this:

If you want to know who's doing well out of Brexit: 🤔

Hedge-funders / gamblers like Tory & Leave donor Crispin Odey who bet against UK businesses and Sterling
e.g. £220 million profit for a 900k donation to Leave 🤔

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/28/crispin-odey-hedge-fund-bets-against-uk-economy-brexit-profit-falls

Odey was one of the most prominent supporters of the drive to leave the EU and donated almost £900,000 to pro-Brexit campaigns.

He placed huge bets against the pound and government bonds
in the run-up to the June 2016 referendum
and made an estimated £220m profit when the pound collapsed following the leave victory.

The day after the vote, he told the BBC:
“There’s that Italian expression – ‘Il mattino ha l’oro in bocca’
(the morning has gold in its mouth)^
and never has one felt so much that idea as this morning.”

Odey has boasted that each day of Brexit-related political crisis is a “good day” for him and his hedge fund.
“I have had a good day,” he told the Times last month, on a day when the pound fell 2%.
“Bad days tend to be good days for us.”

Derxa you said The antics and intransigence of their leaders during negotiations have not endeared me to them. but I am still not clear what antics you think the EU are guilty of during the negotiations. You mention that they have forgotten the working people they serve, but I am also not clear what makes you say this. The link you provide about corruption talks about MEPs being allowed to have second jobs. I agree that second jobs for elected officials could be a conflict of interests, but if this is the worst example of antics and intransigence from the EU you have witnessed I can't see, in the scheme of things and given current circumstances that this is an unassailable issue. I'm also not sure what it has to do with the negotiations.

You ask for real examples from those saying they are impressed by the actions of the EU, all I have been asking is for the same from you of the antics during negotiations that have caused such concern for you that you said you have been turned off the EU.