Westminstenders: Plan B is Plan A again.

[RedToothBrush]

The voting starts around 7pm and is expected to finish up between 8pm and 8.20pm.

May is expected to lose. The question is by how much.

We are then expecting an immediate motion of no confidence in the government by Labour to be put forward.

May is expected to make a speech to calm the markets and then go to Brussels for an utterly pointless visit.

The Labour No Confidence is expected tomorrow afternoon after PMQs. Its expected to fail.

We move no closer to a resolution and ever closer to no deal.

Half the Cabinet want to go into cross party talks. Half the Cabinet don't.

May is apparently insistent that Plan B is Plan A. Which is what you would expect her to tell the house to comply with Grieve IV. Which again is bollocks.

But Bercow could yet refuse to indulge it.

If Plan B is Plan A again, then what's Plan C?

Crisis with a Capital C.

The stalemate grows.

It should be illegal to knowingly lie in an election campaign, but how do you even begin to effectively police it?

@LeClerc thanks for replying, that's pretty much how I see it but wasn't sure if legally we could re-enter the EU quickly.

THe problem is everyone has been almost forced into a "team" and, sorry dhrossetti, but social media is a massive part of that, and once you're on a team you then only see one side of the argument, eg twitter followings and Facebook groups, threads like this etc etc

None of which I disagree with (in fact I did mention it previously )

I'm just a little more about whether that has any tangible result outside itself ? It's tempting to assume it must do, and leave it at that. Certainly that's what someone who's selling you 100,000 click ads for £1,000 hopes you think. But there's a little bit too much of "marking your own homework about it".

Kevin Schofield
@PolhomeEditor
Jeremy Corbyn staffer Joe Bradley has now deleted this tweet. Worth bearing in mind that leaving open the option of supporting a second referendum remains Labour policy.

More Brexshit Bingo:

Farage showed us how corrupt the EU is.
We need out now to stop paying them billions of £££.

It's the only way I can cope otherwise I get quite anxious about the whole thing. I'm beginning my stockpiling this week. I've always got more than I need and my DH thinks I'm mad but ice told him.if we don't stockpile for Brexit or snow I'll feel anxious.

RTB I nearly wrote that about Corbyn in that post. I don't think he has done it very well unfortunately, not because the idea is bad, but because he is not especially competent and he is surrounded by people whose primary objective is power.

I also completely agree with the posts about "selling" information. Easy to sell a simple but false message. Hard to sell a complex reality-based one. I can't think of any current British politician who could do this. Lammy is great at this, but let's just say that putting a black Londoner at the head of the remain campaign would create ... challenges.

I'm in favour of dropping 'stupid' for something les value-laden - but factually accurate - such as 'resistant to engaging with complex information'.

thats a good case in point. its offensive and if I were a leave voter it would be a massive wind up.

* It should be illegal to knowingly lie in an election campaign, but how do you even begin to effectively police it?*

Well you start by prosecuting politicians who do. Off to google what's happening with that crowdfunded case against Boris.

Perhaps it's his worries about that which has changed his physical appearance, rather than missing his wife and being shagged out by the new gf.

I'm not talking about paid for click ads, I'm talking about echo chambers and how you can't change peoples mind or reach them once they're in them. And of course that effects tangible election results. We've seen it! You said yourself the streets are awash with remain supporters marching when leave can't rustle up 70, yet look at the polls...

I have to say, I'm trying to engage in sensible discussion with you and, like mistigr, you're being a little sneery.

{ 40 year grudge against the EU since the last referendum (75). }
To me that sounds a combination of weird and worrying.
How can you have a grudge for so long against people you have hardly met?
I have not met many Russians in Russia, but I would say that of those I met, many were a lot poorer than some who think they are poor in the UK. They are still up for a good time with a horrifying consumption of cheap vodka though!

Le clerk, I think you misread. He doesn't have a grudge against the people, he has a grudge against the institution and the previous ref result (which he "lost" in his mind).

Delurking to say thank you and that this from Red is absolutely spot on:

You are selling to the waverers and the not quite sures

Admitting you've made a mistake is absolute anathema to the human psyche. It damages our self-esteem. Far better to stick to your guns regardless of the facts as far as your ego is concerned. It's how we (remainers and leavers) deal with cognitive dissonance. Have a listen to this, if you've time, especially the bit at 7 minutes in which talks about what happens to members of a cult when Armageddon fails to materialise.

www.thepsychfiles.com/2007/03/episode-8-cognitive-dissonance-in-everyday-life/

Fascinating, if not a little depressing, when applied to the current situation....

Gosh finally caught up and my overwhelming feeling is that the us a lot of panic and swiping on here last night and this morning since the vote.
A couple of days ago it was so positive with people suggesting slogans for a remain campaign .

We knew that TM would lose the vote because do many people saw it as A bad deal for both remain and leave reasons. And for many it was a necessary step to get to the next step and for Labour next 2 steps.

As I passed on in my post yesterday, the MP I heard on Saturday said it would be a tumultuous week .

We need to keep our heads right now .

I get annoyed when I hear captains of industry and similar saying they need to be able to recruit talent from wherever, though I support freedom of movement. My beef is that we have so much unfulfilled potential in this country and could have done so much more to address the problem.
For example doctors and nurses. I've posted before that I taught many young people who would have made very good doctors or nurses but did not follow that path because of restrictions on the number of places. If we had invested, we could have doubled the number of good UK born doctors and nurses (and vets) in a relatively short time.
More investment in education plus a more rigorous approach - there were elements of Gove's reforms I did agree with - and higher expectations could have increased the numbers going into STEM subjects, particularly Computing/IT. Really decent Apprenticeships with straightforward funding could have been developed (I work in Apprenticeships now and the funding is a nightmare).
Yes, in really specialist roles employers might still need to look elsewhere, but surely in a country of 60 million plus we should be able to find sufficient quality workers? Of course, it would help if we held experts in higher regard...

I'm in favour of dropping 'stupid' for something les value-laden - but factually accurate - such as 'resistant to engaging with complex information'. ...thats a good case in point. its offensive and if I were a leave voter it would be a massive wind up.

Maybe we should pop onto a Leaver thread, and ask for an idea of the right word by asking how they would define people who are "resistant to engaging with complex information". And then use that word. Although I have a feeling the word would be ... "stupid".

listening to communities and groups is not just about talking to people and not belittling them (although thats obvs important). Its also about listening to stats, histories, local economics. Understanding concepts, values and theories. Reducing negative stereotyping or 'othering' of other groups is totally possible and can produce changes in attitudes and behaviours relatively quickly but (as usual) requires investment, resources and as RTB referred to up thread a specific mix of skills in the team of people listening/planning/acting.

{Farage showed us how corrupt the EU is.
We need out now to stop paying them billions of £££.}
That is simply sheer hypocrisy. Part of the Billions that the UK is paying is his bloody pension!

{thats a good case in point. its offensive and if I were a leave voter it would be a massive wind up.}
Time to get the thesaurus out.

{Yes, in really specialist roles employers might still need to look elsewhere, but surely in a country of 60 million plus we should be able to find sufficient quality workers?}
I wasted far too much time yesterday trying to get some sense out a poster Weetabix who was suggesting in a round about way that employers should go to the unemployed.

It's important to remember that inflexible thinking isn't the preserve of the leavers...

And on that, I'm out. Can't see the point in engaging with this thread anymore.

You are selling to the waverers and the not quite sures

The waverers and the not quite sures mostly don't post about Brexit on-line so the chances of us influencing them here are minimal.

Probably the best opportunity on mumsnet is on the stockpiling threads (and I think bellini's non-confrontational and practical approach to this issue is instructive).

Reposting Farming Today's short discussion on how to have constructive conversations, followed by the PETA spokeswoman demonstrating how not to do it.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002050

@Sostenueto We all know that EU would like to become a state. Can you fault that man in his voting brexit when he believes in sovereignty? No you cannot.

I certainly can. Cameron had already secured an exemption for the UK from any further political integration into the EU.

I did suggest ways some who are very poor might set up some form of support groups, making things perhaps. There is money available 'out there' but when I suggested help from the Parish Council, the reply suggests she has no idea how the UK is run, let alone the EU who are all evil bastards.

I'm not talking about paid for click ads, I'm talking about echo chambers and how you can't change peoples mind or reach them once they're in them.

I don't disagree. But you don't need - and never did need - "social media" to do that. Just a culture where most evenings are spend in the pub/working mans club/football match would do.

I have to say, I'm trying to engage in sensible discussion with you and, like mistigr, you're being a little sneery.

Maybe it's just the lack of nuance in the printed word ? Given the high standard of writing and eloquence frequently on show here, it's incredible that none of us here has an editor. Even so, there's a chance of being misconstrued. If it's any help, I'm not trying to be sneery ... and if I was, I would be a little disappointed it wasn't clear

Sam Coates Times @samcoatestimes
NEW

Whitehall meeting this morning to discuss how cross-party brexit talks might be structured. Possibly led by David Lidington, Julian Smith, Michael Gove & Gavin Barwell

(The cabinet office - home of coalition negotiations - take back control! The ERG won’t like it tho)

I suspect when the ERG criticise, more brexiteers will be added or substituted to this list ... so treat as provisional

The idea is to have David Lidington in the lead. He has been at the forefront of unofficial “reach out” efforts already

Big test for Tory unity tho. I wrote this morning about Brandon Lewis’s impassioned cabinet plea yesterday not to put thru brexit that relies on Labour votes and splits the Tories

Newstatesmans Steven Bush made the point on newsnight last night that how this plays out owes a huge amount as to what Gove does. If May loses the support of Gove she's utterly fucked. And so are we I suspect.

Irony klaxon.