Westminstenders: Plan B is Plan A again.

[RedToothBrush]

The voting starts around 7pm and is expected to finish up between 8pm and 8.20pm.

May is expected to lose. The question is by how much.

We are then expecting an immediate motion of no confidence in the government by Labour to be put forward.

May is expected to make a speech to calm the markets and then go to Brussels for an utterly pointless visit.

The Labour No Confidence is expected tomorrow afternoon after PMQs. Its expected to fail.

We move no closer to a resolution and ever closer to no deal.

Half the Cabinet want to go into cross party talks. Half the Cabinet don't.

May is apparently insistent that Plan B is Plan A. Which is what you would expect her to tell the house to comply with Grieve IV. Which again is bollocks.

But Bercow could yet refuse to indulge it.

If Plan B is Plan A again, then what's Plan C?

Crisis with a Capital C.

The stalemate grows.

Tatiana - by "the EU is nice" I meant that nice in the sense of "play nice", not nice in the sense that EU membership is nice (advantageous).

I am not sure that many in the UK realise how big and diverse the EU is.
OK many will have gone on holiday to France, a short hop over the channel. Some venture further afield but if you are flying to get there your vision is 'stunted'. In a sense it is only a bit further than your trip to the airport.
For me, popping over to see family to the East of where I live is 9 hours fast driving. There is plenty more EU to go to having got that far.

It feels horrible when you were a member of a club, leave, and they treat you differently. Really horrible. There's some of that going on.

But in this case, the EU "machine" has been strenuously upholding the interests of its members and their people - in particular the Irish people. I agree that the EU has been intransigent, but did you expect them to throw the Irish people under the bus?

Does anyone recall the scene in Fawlty Towers where Basil starts ordering the guests to leave into the pouring rain late at night ? And some of them are surprised and complain ?

They're not thinking about the ordinary working person whose prosperity depends on their decisions.

Do you mean the British working people or the EU working people?

And now PMQs is starting, which is something I could certainly do without. It's just going to be really depressing isn't it.

It feels horrible when you were a member of a club, leave, and they treat you differently. Really horrible. There's some of that going on.

But what on earth did people expect ? Surely on a personal level we can all understand/empathise/imagine/remember situations where we have left a job out of our own volition, and (in some case) been escorted off the premises the moment the notice goes in, having handed over your pass, your coffee machine card, phone, and company car keys ? That's pretty much how grown up business works.

{It feels horrible when you were a member of a club, leave, and they treat you differently. Really horrible. There's some of that going on.}
There is a tricky problem in that the possibility of the UK as a valued EU member actually staying. The EU negotiators have to be scrupulously careful to not get angry and 'forceful' with the UK who might actually stay. The indecision by the UK is tying their hands terribly.
If the UK had said (will say) they are DEFINITELY going, then the EU can get on and deal appropriately. The UK is putting them in a very difficult position, especially as there are many bitter issues with some member states. French and Fishing, Spain and Gibraltar as obvious 'highlights'.
Now consider the UK position, 2 1/2 years on and they haven't managed to define the question, let alone think of an answer.

God PMQs has become a pastiche of itself. So sick of watching this toxic, claustrophobic ping-pong with May and Corbyn spitting out the same repetitive, destructive bile.

I meant that nice in the sense of "play nice", not nice in the sense that EU membership is nice (advantageous).

Ah I see, just wrt their negotiating position. I’m not sure that’s true either. My concern going in was that we were negotiating against one of the top trade negotiating teams in the world and would likely be made mincemeat of.

Ironically the EU have played nice. I am extremely impressed by the top brass of the EU - their intelligence, acuity, patience and fair play. So I’ve got a more positive perception of the EU now than when I started.

I don’t get a sense of anything but fair play from the EU?

I’ve heard more rhetoric and sound bites from the UK, plus a good dose of political opportunism and posturing

Do you mean the British working people or the EU working people?
I meant both.

Ironically the EU have played nice. I am extremely impressed by the top brass of the EU - their intelligence, acuity, patience and fair play. So I’ve got a more positive perception of the EU now than when I started. Please give me an example of this. An actual detailed example.

Could there be a nationwide poll - something like a census? With a list of check boxes to rank in order of importance?

Less immigration
More housing
More money for NHS
Single Market
EU Army
EU superstate
Free health insurance while travelling in EU
No border between Ireland and UK
Customs Union
No visa required to travel in EU
UK parliament has right to say no to any new EU laws
Straight bananas
No tariffs for trade within EU countries
Fast track queues at airports and ports
Right to work in any EU country
Right to live in any EU country
Refugees
Joining the Euro
CAP
Common fisheries policy

Unicorns

And so on.

From PMQs, May's clearly, clearly going for a no deal.

I agree Greensleeves - I have literally just said to dh that PMQs illustrates why UK (Westminster) democracy is broken It's such a fucking waste of time , with no-one actually answering questions (or even asking them ) Just a load of posturing, posturing and more posturing, accompanied by a load of jeering and self-congratulatory applause . No one is actually listening

Pmqs always reminds me of schoolchildren all shouting at once for attention.
Very childish behaviour!

Bang on prettybird

Faisal Islam@faisalislam
Ken Clarke tells the PM she should realise that the vote shows she should modify red lines, seek A50 extension.

PM uses slightly different formulation on extending A50 “The government’s policy is that we leave on March 29” than on revocation “this government will not”

Francis Elliott @ elliotttimes
May has put extending A50 on the table - v significant answer to Clarke.

My thought is she will have a go at talks with opposition with her heart not in it and not seriously so she can try and blame Labour

Then pursue no deal via an extension. Which will be given but limited.

So July exit?

Prettybird read this from yesterday from people you don't share political views with

Tim Montgomerie @montie
Have watched 90% of today’s debate on #WithdrawalAgreement and struck by poor quality of vast maj of contributions. Appreciate strict time limits on speeches but we need a massive clear out of the green benches. So many soundbites, so many dug deeply in trenches, few open minds

Tom Tugendhat @ tomtugendhat
Too much of our Parliament isn’t debate, its speeches. It’s like line dancing. You may be with many others in the same room but fundamentally you’re dancing alone.

I meant both.

How do you feel they have let down the working people of the EU and UK?

I think after a lot of arguing we'll end up leaving with a Norway type deal in July.
However, I think we'll have to keep FOM to do that and a lot of leavers will be unhappy.

I think it’s pretty rare for leavers to get called thick but it does happen and I wish it wouldn’t

You're quite right; in fact "thick" would be a compliment compared to much of what's said. On this one thread alone we've had "s*t for brains", "disobedient toddlers", "racist f*kwits" - and that's within just a few hours and ignores others I've no doubt missed

Like yourself I wish it wouldn't happen, but what I really can't understand is how the insult-slingers think it helps

How do you feel they have let down the working people of the EU and UK? My point was that politicians are the servants of the people not the other way round whatever institution they are working in.

Please give me an example of this. An actual detailed example.

Well, the Brexit negotiations from start to finish.

In particular, the equinanimity and politeness in the face of ignorance and belligerance and downright stupidity of U.K. politicians. Their tolerance over the latest clusterfuck. They seem willing to give us more time when they could just say ‘non’.