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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 12:14

{You don't mention the gain they will make by being able to take a massive chunk of current UK business that relies on SM/CU which can move slowly across the channel during he transition. }
Indeed this may have several 'benefits' to EU companies.
The shift in trade of cars for example. The German and French need to shed capacity, of which an 'unruly' slightly out of Europe would be an excellent excuse in favour of developing new plants nearer the upcoming markets. BMW (?) will be setting up a massive plant in China in about 3 years time. It is waiting for some alteration of Chinese ownership legislation IIRC.
So what BCF is saying is the case now is not really projecting what will happen when companies in the UK move out. It is of course speculation but looking at world news rather than UK or even EU news shows significant shifts to come. None of which look good for an isolated small island a long way from the emerging markets of China and India.

Hasenstein · 13/01/2019 12:18

PMK for the next couple of days. I fear RTB may break her record for new threads next week. Hang on to your collective hats, it's going to be a bumpy ride over the next few days. I've got so many other things I really should be doing, but can't tear myself away from here and the BBC Parliament feed.

TokyoSushi · 13/01/2019 12:20

PMK and buckling in, it's going to be quite a week Shock

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 12:21

{The predictions from politicians here are that No Deal would be as bad as the 2008 financial crisis}
I am presuming BCF that the 'hit' will be of this magnitude to EU countries/industries and far worse for the UK?

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 12:24

The vast majority of the public have a childlike faith that things can never get really bad, because the grownups would not let it happen

A leave friend of me has the attitude that oh they'll just sort it out. A euro sceptic friend who probably voted remain (though I've had moments of doubt) and possibly slipped to being a Leaver (despite his in-laws living in France) has said it'll all resolve itself.

Both are highly educated at red bricks, generally well informed and have a much higher IQ than 100. The latter is particularly politically astute.

I've not spoken to either about Brexit recently so I don't know if either have shifted in opinion. I doubt it of the former but I do wonder about the latter.

But the idea this is restricted to those of low intelligence I think is misguided.

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TheABC · 13/01/2019 12:29

Thank you @ RedToothBrush for this. I am alternating between this thread and preppers. I would like to think the shenigans indicate that the MPs have noticed how bad it's about to get. But it really feels like the grownups left the building a long time ago.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:29

leClerc I work for a large German tech company
I KNOW that some firms have been unable to remove all British goods from their supply chain
That will cause problems, even with the "known unknowns"

I have listened to many speeches and studies the predictions from German business / manufacturing leaders

Experts here expect Germany expects to lose more than it gains from Brexit
but can hopefully make up most of the loss from other markets
The RoI especially, but also France, NL, Spain are very worried

Everyone who is not an idiot realises that the 450 million market will not be as strong as the 515 million market
and that the military & political strength of the EU will be weakened by losing the UK

It is complete BOLLOCKS that the EU think it will gain from Brexit
It is just that it would lose far more from making the concessions the UK demands

and of course the UK will suffer at least an order of magnitude more

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 12:31

The vast majority of the public have a childlike faith that things can never get really bad, because the grownups would not let it happen

In a way, that's a weird endorsement of the past few decades - if not centuries - of British politics. We bumble along, food on table, roofs over heads, and not too much worry. It's also a continuance of the forelock-tugging "Yes, Guvner" expectation of the lower classes (both from above, and within).

Sadly, it seems modern countries - much like modern tech - are much harder to govern than it seems.

I wonder if Apple could just buy the UK whole ?

In other thoughts - wider afield - does anyone else wonder if the age of the nation-state army has passed, and we are returning to the more middle-ages version of international war being waged by what are effectively private companies with state (used to be Royal) backing ? Because the age of conscription has passed - for all the noise, I suspect very few people would volunteer to take up arms. Let alone allow themselves to be conscripted.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:31

Brexit is lose-lose for everyone except the hedge-funders & disaster capitalists

Moussemoose · 13/01/2019 12:33

Yes DG it is the result of the post war consensus. A consensus formed out of the poverty of the 20s and 30s.

It seems we need more poverty and long term economic depression to force people out of their complacency.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:33

Jo Maugham QC@JolyonMaugham

Pretty clear from #Marr that if he wins his vote of confidence a Corbyn Manifesto would support Leave**
and that if he loses his vote of confidence he won't push for a Referendum.

RedToothBrush · 13/01/2019 12:34

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1
Arghhh! Jeremy Corbyn just said on #Marr that the European Court of Human Rights is "in part an EU institution". It isn't! It's a totally separate institution, arising from a separate treaty which well pre-dates the EU and would remain in place whatever version of Brexit

This really is very basic @jeremycorbyn - the European Court of Human Rights isn't part of the EU. Here's a handy explainer from @rights_info on the topic but you really should know this!

Here's a helpful infographic also from @rights_info which shows the history of the European Court of Human Rights which was established in 1959 (well before the European Union)

Here's a video @rights_info made earlier - it's only 2 minutes so really anyone can watch and digest
twitter.com/rights_info/status/1083019007505166336

This was all part of a section where Corbyn was suggesting we should trust Labour to put human rights first. I do trust Labour far more than the Tories but the detail is going to have to be left to @Keir_Starmer because Corbyn seems not to have a clue

One of the reasons we are here is our 'leaders' failed to bother to grasp the detail of what the EU actually is. The right wing press have been deliberately confusing the EU and the ECHR for years to sow discontent It's not good enough - politicians should educate themselves

I set up a whole organisation to deal with these myths. I'm sick of politicians saying they stand up for human rights but not bothering to ensure they understand the most basic aspects of our protections

For those of you accusing me of nitpicking to suit my political agenda, anyone who has followed me for the past 8 years will know that accuracy on human rights and European law has been perhaps my most consistent bugbear. On this, I have some evidence!

I'm with Adam on the Human Rights stuff. Given the anti-semitism stuff going off in Labour atm, its quite a striking lack of basic knowledge and history.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
OP posts:
Mistigri · 13/01/2019 12:34

*Everyone who is not an idiot realises that the 450 million market will not be as strong as the 515 million market
and that the military & political strength of the EU will be weakened by losing the UK

It is complete BOLLOCKS that the EU think it will gain from Brexit
It is just that it would lose far more from making the concessions the UK demands

and of course the UK will suffer at least an order of magnitude more*

This is excellent by BCF and I 100% agree with it.

DGRossetti · 13/01/2019 12:34

Germany managed to gobble a country a third it's size in a few short years - something the UK couldn't even make a drama about. I'd have faith they'll manage a lot better than the UK.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:37

Those who have vaguely heard of the dreadful hardship in the 1920s & 1930s seem to regard it as far back in history as slavery

imo, the development of TV and social media is one cause of the failure of life experiences then to be told and passed down the generations

1tisILeClerc · 13/01/2019 12:38

No I fully understand that everyone in Europe is losing big time and that 'it's not as bad as it could have been' is the way to think about it.

TatianaLarina · 13/01/2019 12:38

But the idea this is restricted to those of low intelligence I think is misguided.

Absolutely. I only know 3 Leave voters yet they were all highly educated - Oxbridge, one a QC, other two were in business so you’d think they’d have more sense. All 60+.

While the Leave vote was on the one hand strongly linked to low education, low skills, low employment levels - on the other is Telegraph twat demographic.

Now I see how easy it is to brainwash intelligent people I have more sympathy for Nazi Germany.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:45

DG Yes, things work better in German and we're much more organised
We'd do much better than the UK even if the Brexit damage were to be equally divided, which it certainly won't be

However, re the East:
all those decades under communist dictatorship, with xenophobia deliberately stoked up too, have left dreadful longterm damage in the East

I am still paying the "Solidarity tax" which I first paid in 1990, which was to bring the East up to the standards of the West

and the East is the engine room of the AfD, with the support for authoritarianism, the sense of victimhood & self-pity, the hatred towards Muslims
We can see how well the Allies did to put West Germany on a fully democratic track from the start, by looking at the East.

Thegirlinthefireplace · 13/01/2019 12:46

Of course remain is better all round l, no one on this thread has said otherwise, but it's not currently on the table (and I thought we were discussing the options currently on the table).

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 12:56

The support for authoritarianism, blood & soil nationlism, the suspicion of foreigners, the sense of victimhood ...
are all emotional qualities that may be found in people with all levels of education, all ages, all religions and cultures.

Could it be related to emotional intelligence ?
If so, that is quite different to IQ, or even education.

Studies suggest that these qualities may be more likely in certain groups, but any generalisation only works for a large population study, certainly not for small groups or individuals

Education can help analytical skills, but many people who hold, e.g. religious or political views, will resist changing them, because they are based on emotions, not intellect or facts

I remember research showing that in fact highly educated people are even better at justifying emotional beliefs than those with less education.
Probably a greater ability to produce verbiage and waffle !

BigChocFrenzy · 13/01/2019 13:00

TheGirl The options are WA / No Deal / Revoke

Revoke is by far the best for both the Uk & EU

but the WA - despite its flaws - is far better for both than the utter disaster of No Deal.
So the EU are just currently pushing the less bad Brexit option that is available

Moussemoose · 13/01/2019 13:16

The strong narrative of politicians cheating us out of what we want. The blood, nationalism and victimhood of Brexit are very, very similar to Weimar Germany.

As are the threats of violence.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 13/01/2019 13:19

Id trust Starmer to negotiate the softest of soft Brexit's without May's red lines but I dont think another referendum is the way to go, I'd love to have faith in our representative democracy but I dont think parliament represents much of any of us anymore except for a few wealthy people, that's how I feel today anyway

Thegirlinthefireplace · 13/01/2019 13:40

Seriously Big Choc.

Revoke is not currently on the table. I hope it is soon, but it's not currently.

Revoke is only currently a possibility in the same land of unicorns where the WA can be negotiated.

Anyone could change their current stance to anything else but what's on the table now is no deal or existing WA.

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 13/01/2019 13:47

I remember research showing that in fact highly educated people are even better at justifying emotional beliefs than those with less education

I think most decision making isn’t actually decision making. Your subconscious makes a decision (based on your knowledge, experience and beliefs) then you rationalise that decision.
It’s why it’s so hard for people to change their minds. I was always a remainer, would I have changed my mind if I’d originally voted leave? I honestly don’t know.

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