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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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Motheroffourdragons · 15/01/2019 09:32

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HesterThrale · 15/01/2019 09:33

Robert Peston thinks May will stubbornly cling on after losing, and will attempt to renegotiate with the EU. She’s not shared any Plan B ideas with anyone at all...

The last 3 paras of his long FaceBook post this morning:

Truthfully we are only at the beginning of the end of this saga that will shape the UK's economy and standing in the world for generations.
Ultimately Tory MPs and Labour MPs - and probably independently of their leaders - will have to make a decision about whether there is a version of Brexit that unites enough of them, or whether they will have to put it back to us in a referendum.
If the existing party structures, Labour and Tory, survive intact, that will be little short of a miracle. But the break up of our big parties may turn out to be the least of what matters.

Holidayshopping · 15/01/2019 09:33

holidayshopping why do you need stats when its common sense that if WA fails and a PV set all the brexiteers plus a lot more who even if they didn't vote will be determined to vote for brexit if they see a democratic vote dished.?

I actually would have thought-based on listening to people who voted Leave (and regretted it)-that the Remain vote would be much higher now-after seeing the debacle of the last year.

But that is based on anecdotal evidence not stats, which is why I asked for some.

1tisILeClerc · 15/01/2019 09:38

www.gov.uk/government/publications/prepare-to-drive-in-the-eu-after-brexit?utm_source=41e5569b-ff44-436c-ba1d-187a5245924c&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
Mother. This isn't quite the piece you need but it gets you in the right area.
Sign up for updates to the tech documents and they will arrive automatically.

1tisILeClerc · 15/01/2019 09:41

{She’s not shared any Plan B ideas with anyone at all}
The Pythons had this covered years ago:
Run away.

TatianaLarina · 15/01/2019 09:41

Robert Peston thinks May will stubbornly cling on after losing, and will attempt to renegotiate with the EU.

Of course she will but I think she might get pushed. They can’t do a leadership challenge til next December - but she might get leant on behind the scenes. We’ll see.

1tisILeClerc · 15/01/2019 09:42

Question 1, Can we extradite a PM who has gone AWOL in Switzerland?
Question 2, would we bother?

Motheroffourdragons · 15/01/2019 09:44

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MissMalice · 15/01/2019 09:52

YouGov daily poll asking whether MPs should vote to accept or reject the deal.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 10:00

Meanwhile the Vimes theory of economics is still as true as ever:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-46866346

The wealthiest students are going to university in England for the lowest cost, by paying their tuition fees up front, say researchers.

About 10% of students are not taking out loans and so avoid interest rates of 6.3% paid by other students, says the Intergenerational Foundation.

(contd)

Mentioned here, because I suspect it's situations like this which drove a lot of the Leave sentiment. Fuck all to do with the EU, and everything to do with a system hell bent on perpetuating inequality.

Sostenueto · 15/01/2019 10:02

Well fingers crossed WA goes down then as everybody assumes it will. Hate assume as that makes an ASS out of U and ME. Think positive think positiveShock

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2019 10:04

Mirror editorial goes for Norway.

So
Mirror - norway
Mail - May's deal
Telegraph & express - no deal
Indy - pv

The FT, Times and Sun haven't declared.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
OP posts:
Thegirlinthefireplace · 15/01/2019 10:06

Sostenueto - apologies if I've not being paying enough attention but I wondered where you stood on the subject as I feel you're against the WA but also think no deal would be a disaster but don't want a people's vote because people would be cross as it's already been voted on, so presumably you're against revoke for the same reasons? Revoke without a vote would make the cross people even crosser if it happened without them even getting a vote.

Is there another option you're in favour of that I'm missing? Or have I misunderstood your position?

Not digging, genuinely trying to understand where you are on it.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/01/2019 10:07

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Quietrebel · 15/01/2019 10:09

Yes Nick Clegg really hurt the centrist approach, equating it with wishy washy turn-coat politics.

Thegirlinthefireplace · 15/01/2019 10:09

Sorry, can't remember who said it but whoever said only chance of a revoke is PV or GE hasn't been paying any attention at all.

JC has been exceptionally clear agin and again that he will pursue Brexit if he gets into government and that he will not pursue SM. And of course May will if continue as is if she retains her premiership.

GE will not change the course of Brexit in any discernible way.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 10:10

Speaking for myself, I can only say now there's talk of "compromise".

Well you can fuck right off with that for a start.

Again, speaking for myself, having been told for over 2 years that "you lost, get over it", any goodwill I have about helping Leavers leave the EU has long since gone.

Compromise. Fuck you.

Quietrebel · 15/01/2019 10:11

GE is utter tripe indeed.

Mrsr8 · 15/01/2019 10:14

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Motheroffourdragons · 15/01/2019 10:16

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Thegirlinthefireplace · 15/01/2019 10:18

I am a very staunch remainer but I would at this point compromise with the fabled Norway+ full SM and CU option which may or may not actually be an option.

Of course leavers wouldn't, so waste of time.

Motheroffourdragons · 15/01/2019 10:20

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DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 10:24

No hint from anyone that if you have to use the word "compromise" then you clearly haven't won.

Jeez.

Thegirlinthefireplace · 15/01/2019 10:25

There are avenues to achieve the same result. Yes, not by 29th March but if we committed to it EU could well extend to get legislation through.

But of course the will for it would have to be there first.

borntobequiet · 15/01/2019 10:29

So what about tuition fees? Very rich people would pay upfront anyway.
My DS - doing very well - all paid off.
My DD - struggling financially - barely pays anything most years. Debt will prob be written off.
It's not the best solution perhaps but what's better? Funding HE (for even the very rich) from general taxation? I'm not convinced about that.
The less well off should definitely get maintenance grants though.

All political parties have introduced or increased tuition fees.

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