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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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Mrsr8 · 15/01/2019 08:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RosaPalma · 15/01/2019 08:00

From Twitter - @garyconnor84

"Wilson said anyone who claimed membership of the EU was a black and white issue was either a charlatan or a simpleton... which brings me on to Boris Johnson" says Betty Boothroyd - backing a "People's Vote" #Brexit t.co/UZ5s8Pcker

Easilyflattered · 15/01/2019 08:09

If May pulls the vote today, does that mean we get No Deal just because no more time left to renegotiate? (Apologies if daft question)

Holidayshopping · 15/01/2019 08:23

I’ve just read that Hilary Benn has pulled the amendment suggested last year to today’s vote. What does that actually mean and why?!

prettybird · 15/01/2019 08:29

Dumb Raab has just said on BBC Breakfast that the UK "doesn't need to put tariffs on" if we trade on WTO terms - but omitted the fact that we would need to do that for the whole world Hmm

He then went on to justify a No Deal Brexit, when Charlie challenged him that lots of business people who might happen to know what they are doing have said it would cause problems, that McLaren Cars have said that they will source more components within the UK.

McLaren Automotive, that major car manufacturer Confused, with a whole 3,340 units produced in 2017 Hmm

They really are clutching at straws Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 08:31

"Can you imagine if we had to ask permission to include their NHS in our trade deal with America"

If that is the Brexiters' plan, to take back current powers of the Scottish Parliament, so they can sell off the NHS and lower food standards .....

then Brexit really is about "taking back control" - Scotland will fight for independence and England will fight to be ruled by the USA

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 08:35

I’ve just read that Hilary Benn has pulled the amendment suggested last year to today’s vote. What does that actually mean and why?!

No vote ?

Holidayshopping · 15/01/2019 08:37

No vote?

What do you mean? That you think tonight’s vote won’t happen?

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 08:38

England will fight to be ruled by the USA

That will spit us out at the earliest opportunity when that £100 million vs. £10 million equation is levered.

Again.

By which point, you'll never heard from the Brexiteers again. Job done. It'll be our great grandchildren that will start the recovery. Probably speaking a form of English we would struggled to understand.

IrenetheQuaint · 15/01/2019 08:39

Benn said on Twitter that he pulled his amendment because since he tabled it the Commons have voted decisively against no deal so it's not as necessary, and he thinks it reasonable that the MV goes ahead without alteration to give a clear reflection of MPs' views on the WA.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 08:41

What do you mean? That you think tonight’s vote won’t happen?

It's been my feeling for a while now ...

BigChocFrenzy · 15/01/2019 08:41

In a forced choice between the 3 options, John Rentoul calculates no HoC majority for any of them,but Remain clearly in the lead and No Deal easily the least liked

John Rentoull@JohnRentoul*

So I still have PM's deal on 215 votes (incl Edward Leigh), 105 short, with 12 Labour possibles in reserve

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
UnnecessaryFennel · 15/01/2019 08:45

I think Benn has withdrawn his amendment to ensure that MPs vote on the actual WA, rather than on the amendment.

It will be a 'clean vote' on the WA. Increasing the chances of a massive humiliating defeat for May.

I think.

Holidayshopping · 15/01/2019 08:47

@UnnecessaryFennel.

Aha, right-thank you for explaining that. I wasn’t quite sure what it meant.

There seem to be loads of amendments-do they all get voted on? As part of tonight’s Vote? Or just one?

Sostenueto · 15/01/2019 08:47

There is always light at the end of a dark tunnel however long that tunnel is. If the WA goes down then maybe, just maybe , Parliament may be able to unite behind something else. We know for sure there's no appetite for no deal in the HoC. We assume the WA will go down hugely (but MPs are fickle and self serving) so that leaves another deal or revoke, PV ( which is not a good idea as remain will lose again, only hope of remain is if May revokes) or a GE. Our country cannot be left in limbo. Something will emerge once the deadwood of the WA is cleared and people can see more clearly. I live in hope always. I am prepared for no deal too. I have faced the worst scenario and realise that I will cope as best I can. All the scaremongering from both sides does not affect me in my belief that we will all survive. It will be very hard but having fought cancer on and off for 20+ years in different forms brexit or no brexit does not come close in frightening me at the end of the day. I am at peace deep down and that to me, is most important.

TatianaLarina · 15/01/2019 08:48

Benn said on Twitter that he pulled his amendment because since he tabled it the Commons have voted decisively against no deal so it's not as necessary, and he thinks it reasonable that the MV goes ahead without alteration to give a clear reflection of MPs' views on the WA

Yeah that makes sense. McDonnell was concerned it would muddy the waters on the vote against WA.

Holidayshopping · 15/01/2019 08:49

PV (which is not a good idea as remain will lose again

Do we have stats suggesting this?

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2019 08:49

Hilary Benn @hilarybennmp
1/6 I have decided to withdraw my amendment to the Government’s Withdrawal Agreement motion today which would have rejected both the PM’s deal and leaving with no deal.

2/6 It’s vital that we now get the clearest expression of view from the House on the Government’s deal - like many others I will vote against it - but I intend to pursue a ‘no to no deal’ vote at the earliest opportunity.

3/6 Since I originally tabled the amendment in December, the House has voted for a no deal amendment to the Finance Bill which is a clear and very welcome indication of MPs’ opposition to no deal.

4/6 Dominic Grieve‘s amendment and the Speaker’s ruling that a business motion can be amended are also very important and there is now a proposal for a Bill that would allow the Commons in effect to rule out a no deal Brexit by seeking an extension to Article 50 if necessary.

5/6 All these developments mean that the House will soon have the opportunity to make it clear that it rejects no deal and so offer reassurance to the many businesses and their workers who are very anxious about the disaster that a no deal Brexit would represent.

6/6 If the Prime Minister loses tonight the Government must reach out across the House to try and find a way forward. If this doesn’t happen, then Parliament will have to take the lead.

Faisal Islam@faisalislam
Benn’s amendment rejected No Deal and the current deal put forward by the PM - held the prospect of it passing and then the PM being spared as thumping a loss in the main vote - but now withdrawn in attempt to allow for clean vote on deal.

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prettybird · 15/01/2019 09:05

Passenger on the Portsmouth-Caen ferry said he wanted "Britain to be great again, like it used to be" Hmm. Doesn't he understand that the UK was great - within the EU - and that the Empire has gone, "That ship has sailed" as another passenger said. Confused

To be fair, most of the people interviewed on that ferry (a BBC Breakfast item) were more realistic and sad about the prospect of Brexit.

And the first guy probably wasn't old enough to remember life in the UK before we joined. Confused

OhYouBadBadKitten · 15/01/2019 09:12

Wonder if that passenger remembers that we'd be back to a litre of spirits, 200 fags and 4l of wine.

Sostenueto · 15/01/2019 09:12

holidayshopping why do you need stats when its common sense that if WA fails and a PV set all the brexiteers plus a lot more who even if they didn't vote will be determined to vote for brexit if they see a democratic vote dished.?

RedToothBrush · 15/01/2019 09:13

Katya adler @ bbckatyaadler
Berlin denying reports this morning that Merkel offered the PM a weakening of the backstop #Brexit 1

Berlin is in a more pragmatic mood than Paris about the What Next if #Brexit deal crushed in parliament today BUT there are no indications at all that the EU is willing to walk away from having a guarantee for the Irish border however much it wants to avoid a No deal Brexit 2

Well that's really shocked me. Hmm

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prettybird · 15/01/2019 09:20

A contrary interpretation of "common sense" is that people who voted Leave as a protest vote, plus those that didn't vote because they didn't feel that they knew enough, would now vote Remain because they now understand the implications of their vote (or previous non-vote). Hmm

"Common Sense" is usually based on experience - although as one person I worked with used to say, "If common sense were so common, why is there so little of it about?" Confused

TatianaLarina · 15/01/2019 09:20

6/6 If the Prime Minister loses tonight the Government must reach out across the House to try and find a way forward. If this doesn’t happen, then Parliament will have to take the lead.

Yep.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 09:24

6/6 If the Prime Minister loses tonight the Government must reach out across the House to try and find a way forward.

Well, we know that's never going to happen. Even if it did, the very first pre-requisite from the other side should be "We'll help, when you're gone.". And that's not being snippy. It's simply a logical acceptance of the fact that - having failed - Theresa May is toxic.

If this doesn’t happen, then Parliament will have to take the lead.

Yeah, right HmmHmm

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