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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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53
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 22:50

imo, The HoL would not vote down a WA that had actually passed through the HoC

  • an unelected chamber being responsible / blamed for whatever happened next ?
BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 22:51

No-deal Brexit - a Berlin view

Merkel may be trying to help over the WA, but the EU are giving out v tough vibes on what happens to the UK if there's No Deal

Looks like an extension now is possible though, as EU would like ^more time for No Deal prep
^
https://www.rte.ie/amp/10232055^/??^

1) A no-deal Brexit would lead to a deterioration of long-term political relationships, which would make a new trade deal and other forms of EU-UK co-operation less likely.

2) If the EU wants to protect the integrity of the single market, a no-deal Brexit will mean the imposition of customs controls on the Irish border.
^
3) His policy response recommendation - ^
"the overall strategic direction the EU should take would be to increase the cost to the UK of a no-deal Brexit as much as possible".
....
the EU would justifiably consider the non-honouring of the UK’s financial commitments as a hostile act^"
....^
there is a real question mark over whether the EU can adopt all the emergency laws needed to mitigate the impact of a no-deal Brexit by 29 March.
^
Because of this he thinks the EU has an interest in a short delay to the Article 50 process in case Westminster (decisively) rejects the Withdrawal Agreement.^

And by short he means either 18 April, the last scheduled sitting day of the European Parliament, or the end of June,
the last legally possible day that the currently constituted Parliament has any right to pass legislation.

Lonelyheart2020 · 14/01/2019 22:51

Anyone know what the vote actually means in terms of the WA ?

prettybird · 14/01/2019 22:51

DGR asked earlier today if there was anything that the EU wanted to do that it was being impeded from doing by a recalcitrant UK.

I know he was thinking of internal structures and policies but in terms of trade, iirc, it's been the UK that has been blocking the EU trade deal with India Confused despite all May's exaggerated claims of new opportunities with India Iirc, the sticking point from the UK was the ease, number and type of visas that India wanted as part of the FTA.

Unsurprisingly, when May gallivanted off to India expecting a warm welcome, she came back much more low key once the Indians told her that they expected the visa regime to be loosened in return for a trade deal Hmm

OhYouBadBadKitten · 14/01/2019 22:53

what time is the vote tomorrow?

TokyoSushi · 14/01/2019 22:55

Apparently we'll get the result around 10pm @OhYouBadBadKitten but voting on various things begins at 7pm so you might need snacks, and Gin

OhYouBadBadKitten · 14/01/2019 23:02

thanks :) I've a meeting, should escape around 8:30.

DoctorTwo · 14/01/2019 23:10

Watching Newsnight on the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation and they have 3 Tory Brexiters on. What a load of shite, 3 Tories arguing about which Brexit is best with no debate from a Remainer of any stripe. And yes, for the first time I'm goping to complain. Biased fuckers.

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 23:15

Meds kicking in gotta go. Hang on to your hats tomorrow everybody!
Seriously, just let's hope for an outcome that will save our country going down the chute. I love my country and its people and would not wish for the demise of either of them.Sad

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 23:17

BBC has always been biased.Angry

TokyoSushi · 14/01/2019 23:25

Night night all, busy day tomorrow!

SwedishEdith · 15/01/2019 00:20

I see there is another 'Why I voted Leave' thread with a supportive post already. Wonder why we're getting so many of these atm? Hmm

OlennasWimple · 15/01/2019 00:35

Another whirlwind day ahead of us....

MissMalice · 15/01/2019 01:00

@SwedishEdith - seems the poster joined to post that thread, no other posts made by them. How can anyone “know what they voted for” when we don’t even know what we’re getting as a result of the vote Hmm

Peregrina · 15/01/2019 01:07

She will go for it until the 11th hour, because she believes that is what God damns she does in the national interest and she will believe she has done everything in the national interest. Then she will make her decision.

Maybe she will have a Damascene conversion? As will Saul/Paul, her basic personality won't change but she will become a zealous proponent of Remain.

mathanxiety · 15/01/2019 04:55

I have this recurring vision of some Grand Chess Master brooding over the board, with many moves ahead already planned. Simply because he can.

His name is Robert Mercer.

Steve Bannon has been awfully quiet of late.

mathanxiety · 15/01/2019 04:58

"Their plan is a trade deal with US and maybe join CPTPP to be in direct competition with EU. The particular threat is of Trump's USA & ERG & cohorts breaking the Single Market via an open border."

DGR: The problem with that, is if the UK does renege, the EU will simply leverage the US and prevent any UK-US trade deals. After all, if you are a US company/state, and you do £100 million business with the EU, are you going to risk that for a £10 million deal with the UK ?

Remember the EU pretty much killed off US steel tariffs with pressure on Floridas orange industry.

Agree with that DGR.

Also -
Reunited Ireland.
Problem solved.

PineappleSunrise · 15/01/2019 06:03

I don't understand why some leavers on another thread are being such miserable gits when it looks like they will be getting the leave they want.
They are still moaning about the EU but can't think things will improve when they are out.

Because, in spite of "always knowing what they voted for," and "leave means leave," and all the other hubristic slogans over the past two years, now that we're down to the metal they can't get away from the fact that all glorious dreams do need to hit reality.

And unsurprisingly, when you've built something up to be the emotional equivalent of Armistice Day, winning the World Cup, and finally getting planning permission for that extension that will piss off your neighbour, it's all just a bit of an anticlimax.

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 06:50

Oh dear ... seems Theresa has now had to admit that no deal is worse than any deal ...

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/no-deal-brexit-will-fuel-scottish-independence-calls-theresa-may-admits-1-4856425

Prime Minsiter Theresa May addresses MPs on the eve of the 'meaningful vote' on her Brexit deal
Prime Minsiter Theresa May addresses MPs on the eve of the 'meaningful vote' on her Brexit deal

A no-deal Brexit would fuel demands for a second referendum on Scottish independence and a border poll on Irish reunification, Theresa May has admitted.

Addressing MPs to present assurances on the Irish border backstop issued by the EU on Monday, the Prime Minister said that no deal was the “real threat to our Union”.

Mrs May’s government has previously insisted that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, and dismissed any suggestion that a second independence referendum could take place as a result of Brexit.

But in an appeal to try save her Brexit deal ahead of Tuesday’s crucial Commons vote, the Prime Minister warned of the risk no-deal would pose to the survival of the UK.

READ MORE: Brexit: EU assurances fail to win back support from DUP
“To those who think we should reject this deal in favour of no deal, because we cannot get every assurance we want, I ask: what would a no deal Brexit do to strengthen the hand of those campaigning for Scottish independence - or indeed those demanding a border poll in Northern Ireland?

“Surely this is the real threat to our Union.”

An exchange of letters between Mrs May and EU chiefs failed to secure a firm end date for the backstop, which will come into force if a trade deal that prevents a hard border in Ireland isn’t agreed by the end of 2020.

The backstop would see the whole UK remain under EU customs rules, but would also see a different set of EU regulations apply in Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK.

The backstop has infuriated Tory Brexiteers and the government’s DUP allies, who said on Monday that the assurances were not enough to win their support.

Addressing her critics, Mrs May told MPs: “I fully understand that these new assurances still will not go as far as some would like.

“I recognise that some Members wanted to see changes to the Withdrawal Agreement: a unilateral exit mechanism from the backstop, an end date or rejecting the backstop altogether – although it should be said that this would have risked other EU Member States attempting to row back on the significant wins we have already achieved such as on control over our waters or the sovereignty of Gibraltar.

“But the simple truth is this: the EU was not prepared to agree to this.

“And rejecting the backstop altogether means no deal.

Theresa May meeting EU Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker at Downing Street Theresa May meeting EU Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker at Downing Street

“Whatever version of the Future Relationship you might want to see – from Norway to Canada to any number of variations – all of them require a Withdrawal Agreement and any Withdrawal Agreement will contain the backstop.

And that is not going to change however the House votes tomorrow.”

READ MORE: Brexit: Theresa May accused of 'hypocrisy' over devolution votes
The Prime Minister concluded: “Over these next 24 hours, give this deal a second look.

“No it is not perfect. And yes it is a compromise.

“But when the history books are written, people will look at the decision of this House tomorrow and ask: Did we deliver on the country’s vote to leave the European Union?

“Did we safeguard our economy, our security and our Union? Or did we let the British people down?”

DGRossetti · 15/01/2019 06:52

and it seems the Scottish parliament are snowflakes with their stuck up views on food safety and hygience ....

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
Quietrebel · 15/01/2019 07:40

Steve Bannon has been awfully quiet of late.

No, he's just busy with France I suspect.

Hasenstein · 15/01/2019 07:44

control over our waters

This oft-repeated trope always reminds me of someone with severe incontinence problems; Brexit as a solution to a bladder infection.

Anyway, off to Parliament Square for the PV rally later today. Despite going on previous rallies, I've not really been in favour of a PV and had hoped that parliament would finally come to its senses and stop the madness we've launched ourselves into. With the options rapidly narrowing, I think it may be our last chance for sanity to reassert itself, despite all the risks due to head-in-sand leavers. If we're going down, at least we can have a final shot at it before the waters close over our heads.

At least I feel I'm doing something, rather than just a fatalistic shrug at the sight of the country destroying itself.

Leavers seem to have gone from their original euphoria of the promised sunlit uplands to a survivalist dig-for-victory mood, in which we might get through it if we pull together and display enough bulldog spirit. Many just seem to be stubbornly toeing the old leaving line out of sheer embarrassment that they might have actually got it all wrong.

And I still can't get my head round the fact that we're doing all this to ourselves. No-one told or asked us to risk our national wellbeing like this, apart from the loony ERG types who won't suffer anyway. No external threat has forced us to take the drastic measures now being considered just to survive.

I sometimes wish a plague on all their houses, let them stew in the juices of their own hard Brexit, but then I think of all the innocent dupes and steadfast remainers who will really suffer because of this contrived act of self-harm and I can't bring myself to accept what's being done to us all for the benefit of the very few.

Then I think of the bloody-minded arrogance of Corbyn, the self-styled tribune of the poor, and I could really weep.

jasjas1973 · 15/01/2019 07:49

“Did we safeguard our economy, our security and our Union? Or did we let the British people down?"

If she was genuine, she'd revoke, that's the only course of action that protects all of the above.

Dongdingdong · 15/01/2019 07:50

Seriously, just let's hope for an outcome that will save our country going down the chute. I love my country and its people and would not wish for the demise of either of them.

And what “outcome” is that exactly? At least if WA doesn’t get voted through, then there’s a chance that Brexit might not happen at all.

UnnecessaryFennel · 15/01/2019 07:54

Fame at last. I feel entirely validated in my life choices, now that I've been slagged off by the Mail Online BTL commentators Grin

Life admin question - if the vote is at 7pm tonight, am I right in thinking that the result won't be until quite a bit later? I have something on tonight and won't be home until 9ish, but don't want to miss it.