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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
Thread gallery
53
DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 16:38

She winds me up when she talks about not letting the people down.

"The people" = "Tories".

nicoala1 · 14/01/2019 16:40

Even worse hypocritical rubbish from Corbyn.

May and Corbyn are two cheeks of the same arse.

TheElementsSong · 14/01/2019 16:41

umpteen Squeeeeeeel! I love torties!

This is my tortie girl 😍

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
LouiseCollins28 · 14/01/2019 16:43

For those of you bemoaning the statement Theresa May is making, what do you, seriously, expect/want her to say?

What can she say, in advance of a vote on her deal? IMO she's hardly likely to say, "actually I've decided we aren't doing this at all" is she? So what do you expect from her.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 16:44

.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
Tonsilss · 14/01/2019 16:47

WA fails. Goes back to Eu without success. No deal. So what Boris wants.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 16:49

Yes, DG Although some claim that the HoC can legally force the PM to take some action,

  • e.g. Revoke, or apply for an extension -
I don't see the legal mechanism for this; what specifically they can do.

Of course, the HoC can pressure her, by blocking all legislation or even voting NC in her govt (they don't have the votes for that)

but the British Constitution has no provision for the HoC to use the PM as a handpuppet
The PM has executive power, with many of the delegated powers of a monarch

and unless the UK chooses either Revoke or the WA, or applies - and is granted - an A50 extension,
then No Deal happens automatically on 29 March.
The HoC can vote against No Deal all it wants, but it cannot override international law.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 16:58

imo, most likely:

  1. time runs out and we Brexit with No Deal on 29 March

Next likely:
12: the WA is passed on the umpteenth attempt

I would be astonished at 4), unless the stress is seriously harming May's health:

She has persisted through humiliating defeats that would have caused any other PM to quit or be toppled
She won't be toppled as PM by an NC vote (unless the WA passes)
and she cannot be toppled as Tory leader until December

She is well aware that if she resigns she could be replaced by a Brexit Ultra who would go for No Deal

So, I expect her WA to be defeated and that she carries on.

JSmitty · 14/01/2019 17:00

"For those of you bemoaning the statement Theresa May is making, what do you, seriously, expect/want her to say?"

  • I said I would not delay the vote then did because I said I would go back and get something more. I got nothing. I resign.
RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 17:03

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mp-tulip-siddiq-delays-caesarean-for-brexit-vote-a4037946.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true
Labour MP Tulip Siddiq delays Caesarean for Brexit vote

Against doctors advice because she doesn't trust the pairing system.

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BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 17:04

red I haven't read any reliable, i.e. Irish / EU sources saying the backstop would be pulled / watered down 🤔

Just the usual claims from Tory Brexiters that we've had for over a year, that Ireland will blink and roll over, awed by the might of the UK.

Rumours of an extension are heating up - but reportedly the UK hasn't yet even made feelers to the EU about this
So it's just the EU clearing its collective throat and saying they might consider this even without a PV or GE:

LouiseCollins28 · 14/01/2019 17:04

....so you expect TM to resign Before the vote on her deal is held?!

SusanWalker · 14/01/2019 17:05

Or TM resigns we get a new leader and no GE. Although I think this is more unlikely as new leader most likely to be BJ or similar considering party members, and if no deal becomes policy some Tories threatening to resign the whip which will lead to government not being able to carry on.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 17:05

Blimey, red the WA is likely to be voted down by such a wide margin, I'd expect her to put her health first

HesterThrale · 14/01/2019 17:06

I expect it will be 8.

Hopefully leading to 6, as that’s the only way to cut dead all this anxiety-inducing nonsense. It’s taking its toll, on many people in many ways.

I hope it all gets sorted before an election is called. What planet is Corbyn on thinking he’d win an election? In fact, it’s quite a good position for him now: the Tories have to sort it and take the rap, they don’t have a proper majority so are held to account/ their actions are tempered a bit, etc etc.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 17:06

I don't think May would resign before Brexit (or Revoke)

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 17:07

Don't confuse what you want her to do, with what she is likely to do

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 17:07

{The red-breasted bird is common across Europe but is rarely seen in Beijing - it's only the third time one has been recorded in the capital.

Some birdwatchers have joked the robin might be a "Brexit refugee".}
From BBC website.
I was trying to grab the headline about a Canadian sentenced to death in China for drug offenses.

One of the perils of being 'international'.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:08

Or TM resigns we get a new leader and no GE.

Every non-elected PM has always had to struggle - even when they have a majority. I suspect this was one factor that caused the 2017 GE.

It would be bad enough in normalcy, let alone now.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:09

The pairing system - like our democracy - is broken beyond repair.

jasjas1973 · 14/01/2019 17:09

For those of you bemoaning the statement Theresa May is making, what do you, seriously, expect/want her to say?

She has boxed herself in, so can say little else but i would expect a PM in her position to show a little more humility and to answer questions in a straight forward manner without the lies and deceit which now appears to be her stock in trade e.g. her voting record on the Welsh assembly, extension of art50 or ruling out no-deal.

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 17:11

{Blimey, red the WA is likely to be voted down by such a wide margin, I'd expect her to put her health first}
Absolutely, what kind of ancient ritual is it that demands physical presence to enter your vote?
To not be able to trust the pairing system is also so wrong too.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:12

without the lies and deceit which now appears to be her stock in trade e.g. her voting record on the Welsh assembly,

Just read some discussion where that's not her fault, but her speechwriters ... which really makes it so much worse ....

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 17:13

David Allen Green@davidallengreen
Hi everybody, say "hello" to sections 19 and 22 of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, which define "emergency" and the scope of emergency regulations:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/36/section/19

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/36/section/22

I am sure we will not be using these any time soon, so just for your interest.

Emergency regulations can amend (and even repeal) any legislation other than the relevant part of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and the Human Rights Act.

And by the way, the sheer breadth and potential illiberaism of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004?

Say a big "thank you" to the last Labour government.

Not always the Tories to blame, you know.

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DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:15

To not be able to trust the pairing system is also so wrong too.

The problem is, because it's "Gentlemans club rules", there's no comeback when it goes wrong. Rightly or wrongly, once the vote is done, it's done. There is no return. It something real software engineers who work in finance would recognise: a correction has to be posted as a reversing transaction in order to ensure consistency. Same with parliament.

And given there has already been a Brexit pairing malfunction

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/23/tories-will-not-repeat-vote-pairing-errors-says-mays-deputy

then I would definitely err on the side of caution.

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