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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 15:38

So my understanding of all the options are below* anyone care to place their bets on what you believe the most likely outcome is in terms of next steps (note most likely, not the one you prefer!)

  1. WA passes tomorrow
  2. WA rejected: vote of no confidence raised and passes -> Art 50 extended and GE
  3. WA rejected: TM gets something else from EU and WA goes back to vote
  4. WA rejected: TM resigns -> Art 50 extended for leadership contest and GE
  5. WA rejected: TM agrees to put different options for next steps to Parliament for vote to find consensus
  6. WA rejected: Art 50 revoked (with or without TM resignation)
  7. WA rejected: Art 50 extended for PV
  8. WA rejected: TM goes back to EU but secured nothing else of note, can't therefore put WA to a vote again and leads to one of options 4-7
  9. WA rejected: TM says straight out that we will go to 'no deal'
10. Other?

*I haven't included any other 'deal' such as Norway or Canada++ as these deals haven't been worked on at all.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 15:39

She wants to be seen in control. Which now means holding the vote.

Funny, I see it the other way round ... every time there has been a danger she'd lose control she's swerved.

The control bit, is now following the vote and being seen to manage the defeat.

Given the hyperbole thus far, she's already made that an impossible task.

She's going to attempt to snatch victory from the Jaws of defeat in that manner instead.

I still can't see her countenancing a known defeat. Everything she has done thus far points away from having to put on a shit-eating grin as the numbers are read out. Bearing in mind to lose by one vote would be a disaster. To lose by at least double-digits ... unthinkable.

I'm not feeling a vibe of the vote being pulled at the last minute.

(mock sneering) whereas you saw it coming last time Grin ?

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 15:41

So my understanding of all the options are below*

regardless of likelihood, no vote is also an option.

umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 15:51

Amended

  1. WA passes tomorrow
  2. WA rejected: vote of no confidence raised and passes -> Art 50 extended and GE
  3. WA rejected: TM gets something else from EU and WA goes back to vote
  4. WA rejected: TM resigns -> Art 50 extended for leadership contest and GE
  5. WA rejected: TM agrees to put different options for next steps to Parliament for vote to find consensus
  6. WA rejected: Art 50 revoked (with or without TM resignation)
  7. WA rejected: Art 50 extended for PV
  8. WA rejected: TM goes back to EU but secured nothing else of note, can't therefore put WA to a vote again and leads to one of options 4-7
  9. WA rejected: TM says straight out that we will go to 'no deal'
10. The WA vote is pulled -> and then who the fuck knows... 11. Other?
MissMalice · 14/01/2019 15:57

My guess -

  1. The WA vote is pulled -> and then who the fuck knows...
  1. WA rejected: TM goes back to EU but secured nothing else of note, can't therefore put WA to a vote again and leads to one of options 4-7
  2. WA rejected: TM agrees to put different options for next steps to Parliament for vote to find consensus
  3. WA rejected: TM says straight out that we will go to 'no deal'
  4. WA rejected: TM resigns -> Art 50 extended for leadership contest and GE
  5. WA rejected: vote of no confidence raised and passes -> Art 50 extended and GE
  6. WA rejected: TM gets something else from EU and WA goes back to vote
  7. WA rejected: Art 50 revoked (with or without TM resignation)
  8. WA rejected: Art 50 extended for PV
  9. WA passes tomorrow
umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 15:58

Having gone through each of these my best guess is 8.

She'll ask for an extension and try to negotiate further, get nothing of note and either won't be able to take it back to Parliament or the speaker allows her to do so even though substantially still the same.

I think the EU might grant a small extension just to avoid looking like the bad guys. Interesting points below about then having to get this through Parliament though, I don't think the Brexiteers have the numbers to stop an extension though.

I don't think the EU will remove the backstop or legally limit it. The UK can't be trusted in regards to anything related to Brexit so I wouldn't if I was them.

So, we'll probably be back to another WA vote or confirmation that the WA can't go back to Parliament but closer to B-Day. Then I think it depends on the mood of the day as to whether we 'no deal', 'revoke' or 'PV'.

But TBH I genuinely feel like I can't call it!

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 15:59

Just had an twinge moment ... needed to go on the Italian Foreign office website, and noted the two icons ... "EU countries" and "Rest of the World" Sad

Breaks my fucking heart.

Violetparis · 14/01/2019 15:59

My guess is 3 or 8.

Ellie56 · 14/01/2019 16:01

On a probability scale

3 or 5 most likely

1 most unlikely. Although can't really see TM going for no deal.

There is also the possibility of WA being rejected, a vote of no confidence being raised and failing. Tories will not want to risk Labour getting in and DUP have said they would back them on this.

Who envisaged any of this shitshow when they voted in the referendum? David Cameron has so much to answer for. Angry

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 16:02

I don't think the EU will remove the backstop or legally limit it.

It's not really in their gift - if they did it would break their own rules .

Mrsr8 · 14/01/2019 16:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 16:05

DGR there were rumours of it being pulled 2 or 3 days before. Which were on here (puts ner ner finger on nose)

May manage another big uturn without a single rumour this far out?

Na. Not feeling it.

OP posts:
umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 16:06

I'd be quite happy with 5...an extension and various options put forward to see where there is enough consensus for a majority. If this had been done to begin with we wouldn't be in this position.

This would take time though and the result may be to find that there isn't a majority for any option (I suspect this is likely?) and then we aren't any further forward so no idea whether the EU would have appetite to extend for this or just see it as more UK fuckwittery and most probably be correct Sad

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 16:08

@RTB

fairy nuff.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 16:10

Incidentally, I'm sure it's unconscious, but Theresa May certain seems to know how to boil my piss by using phrases like for the sake of the UK ... it's a tad too close to the patriotic call of scoundrels.

If she had said "For my sake", I would actually thought more of her - at least that would be honest.

Holidayshopping · 14/01/2019 16:10

Hoping for 6.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/01/2019 16:14

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 16:14

I'm finding this build up to knowing what Plan B is extraordinarily painful.

So here is the second of my cats...she's the one of the four that is bright enough to plot world domination, I would trust Brexit in her paws much more than the the current Government. In any event I could bribe her easily to remain with a catnip mouse.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 16:17
  1. The WA is rejected. Martians invade and take over Westminster. No one notices the difference.
OP posts:
bellinisurge · 14/01/2019 16:17

That is a beautiful cat.

lonelyplanetmum · 14/01/2019 16:24

That is a beautiful cat.

My money's on 5 or 8.

x

TokyoSushi · 14/01/2019 16:28

3 or 8 for me, leading to even more uncertainty, getting us closer to 29th March, still with no bloody plan!

TokyoSushi · 14/01/2019 16:30

This statement is very focused on the backstop so far...

JSmitty · 14/01/2019 16:36

What a load of codswallop from May.

Who does she imagine she is kidding?

lonelyplanetmum · 14/01/2019 16:37

She winds me up when she talks about not letting the people down.

She's let 48% down as well as so many other people they can't all be listed.