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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 17:18

I guess we better have a good look at the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 then...

19 Meaning of “emergency”
(1)In this Part “emergency” means—
(a)an event or situation which threatens serious damage to human welfare in the United Kingdom or in a Part or region,
(b)an event or situation which threatens serious damage to the environment of the United Kingdom or of a Part or region, or
(c)war, or terrorism, which threatens serious damage to the security of the United Kingdom.

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1)(a) an event or situation threatens damage to human welfare only if it involves, causes or may cause—
(a)loss of human life,
(b)human illness or injury,
(c)homelessness,
(d)damage to property,
(e)disruption of a supply of money, food, water, energy or fuel,
(f)disruption of a system of communication,
(g)disruption of facilities for transport, or
(h)disruption of services relating to health.

(3)For the purposes of subsection (1)(b) an event or situation threatens damage to the environment only if it involves, causes or may cause—
(a)contamination of land, water or air with biological, chemical or radio-active matter, or
(b)disruption or destruction of plant life or animal life.

(4)The Secretary of State may by order amend subsection (2) so as to provide that in so far as an event or situation involves or causes disruption of a specified supply, system, facility or service—
(a)it is to be treated as threatening damage to human welfare, or
(b)it is no longer to be treated as threatening damage to human welfare.

(5)An order under subsection (4)—
(a)may make consequential amendment of this Part, and
(b)may not be made unless a draft has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament.

(6)The event or situation mentioned in subsection (1) may occur or be inside or outside the United Kingdom.

OP posts:
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 14/01/2019 17:19

Adam Bienkov
@AdamBienkov
Brexiteer Conservative MP Desmond Swayne calls on Theresa May to suspend parliament until April in order to "guarantee Brexit."

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:19

Why is national poverty not an emergency by those criteria ?

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 17:22

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/14/i-dont-trust-the-government-to-look-after-me-or-my-dog-meet-the-brexit-stockpilers
Those posting pics of your beautiful cats, do you love them this much?
(yeas I know it's a dog I am not quite that stupid!)

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 17:23

22 Scope of emergency regulations

(1)Emergency regulations may make any provision which the person making the regulations is satisfied is appropriate for the purpose of preventing, controlling or mitigating an aspect or effect of the emergency in respect of which the regulations are made.

(2)In particular, emergency regulations may make any provision which the person making the regulations is satisfied is appropriate for the purpose of—
(a)protecting human life, health or safety,
(b)treating human illness or injury,
(c)protecting or restoring property,
(d)protecting or restoring a supply of money, food, water, energy or fuel,
(e)protecting or restoring a system of communication,
(f)protecting or restoring facilities for transport,^
^(g)protecting or restoring the provision of services relating to health,
(h)protecting or restoring the activities of banks or other financial institutions,
(i)preventing, containing or reducing the contamination of land, water or air,
(j)preventing, reducing or mitigating the effects of disruption or destruction of plant life or animal life,
(k)protecting or restoring activities of Parliament, of the Scottish Parliament, of the Northern Ireland Assembly or of the National Assembly for Wales, or
(l)protecting or restoring the performance of public functions.

(3)Emergency regulations may make provision of any kind that could be made by Act of Parliament or by the exercise of the Royal Prerogative; in particular, regulations may—
(a)confer a function on a Minister of the Crown, on the Scottish Ministers, on the National Assembly for Wales, on a Northern Ireland department, on a coordinator appointed under section 24 or on any other specified person (and a function conferred may, in particular, be—
(i)a power, or duty, to exercise a discretion;
(ii)a power to give directions or orders, whether written or oral);
(b)provide for or enable the requisition or confiscation of property (with or without compensation);
(c)provide for or enable the destruction of property, animal life or plant life (with or without compensation);
(d)prohibit, or enable the prohibition of, movement to or from a specified place;
(e)require, or enable the requirement of, movement to or from a specified place;
(f)prohibit, or enable the prohibition of, assemblies of specified kinds, at specified places or at specified times;
(g)prohibit, or enable the prohibition of, travel at specified times;
(h)prohibit, or enable the prohibition of, other specified activities;
(i)create an offence of—
(i)failing to comply with a provision of the regulations;
(ii)failing to comply with a direction or order given or made under the regulations;
(iii)obstructing a person in the performance of a function under or by virtue of the regulations;
(j)disapply or modify an enactment or a provision made under or by virtue of an enactment;
(k)require a person or body to act in performance of a function (whether the function is conferred by the regulations or otherwise and whether or not the regulations also make provision for remuneration or compensation);
(l)enable the Defence Council to authorise the deployment of Her Majesty’s armed forces;
(m)make provision (which may include conferring powers in relation to property) for facilitating any deployment of Her Majesty’s armed forces;
(n)confer jurisdiction on a court or tribunal (which may include a tribunal established by the regulations);
(o)make provision which has effect in relation to, or to anything done in—
(i)an area of the territorial sea,
(ii)an area within British fishery limits, or
(iii)an area of the continental shelf;
(p)make provision which applies generally or only in specified circumstances or for a specified purpose;
(q)make different provision for different circumstances or purposes.

(4)In subsection (3) “specified” means specified by, or to be specified in accordance with, the regulations.

(5)A person making emergency regulations must have regard to the importance of ensuring that Parliament, the High Court and the Court of Session are able to conduct proceedings in connection with—
(a)the regulations, or
(b)action taken under the regulations.

Gosh this plus No Deal, look like a Dictator's Hand Book.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 17:24

Why is national poverty not an emergency by those criteria ?

Cos you have to want to avert it, or use the act for your own political ends?

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:26

Ah, so forced labour is a possibility. As is seizure of property. Looks like some preppers might find themselves unprepped by the troops.

We'll be fighting in the streets,
with out children at our feet,
and the idols that we worshipped,
they'll be gone ...

BlueJag · 14/01/2019 17:28

I don't know what's going on anymore. Sad

umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 17:31

@1tisILeClerc We have already begun our cat food and flea treatment stockpile

Santa Paws was very generous with cat treats so no further stockpiling required on that front Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 17:32

I was just about to post this anyway

No need for Parliament or Henry VIII -
The govt does not need parliamentary permission if it invokes the Civil Contingencies Act

  • which gives it Emergency Powers -
but after 30 days it needs Parliamentary approval to continue

Civil Contingencies Act 2004

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/36/pdfs/ukpga200400366_en.pdf

22 Scope of emergency regulations

(1) Emergency regulations may make any provision which the person making the regulations is satisfied is appropriate for the purpose of preventing, controlling or mitigating an aspect or effect of the emergency in respect of which the regulations are made.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/36/contents

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jan/07/politics.terrorism

the government has tightened its definition of an "emergency" to make clear
the new powers cannot be triggered by an event which merely threatens the "political, administrative or economic stability" of the country.
< so only to ensure the distribution of essential supplies - food, meds, power - not afaik, JIT components >
...
The bill will confer sweeping authority on ministers to do almost anything that once an emergency has been declared.
According to the Guardian back in 2004, it poses "potentially the greatest threat to civil liberty that any parliament is ever likely to consider".
...
"The powers available to the government and state agencies would be truly draconian
Cities could be sealed off,
travel bans introduced
all phones cut off,
and websites shut down.
Demonstrations could be banned
and the news media be made subject to censorship.
New offences against the state could be "created" by government decree.

Buteo · 14/01/2019 17:33

I think my cat spotted Boris lurking in the garden this morning.

Either that or she was practicing her squirrel disguise.

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux
bellinisurge · 14/01/2019 17:33

Prepper here. They have to find me if they want to take my stuff.Grin
I doubt it will come to that anyway.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:34

You can add those powers the under the radar ones that police and local authorities have been using since 2011.

(No, of course you never noticed - that was the idea).

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 17:35

Warning, a couple on here are in print!

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:36

Prepper here. They have to find me if they want to take my stuff

I'm sure there will be plenty of neighbours willing to grass you up Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 17:37

I remember lawyers online discussing who thought

The Fixed Term Parliament Act could probably be repealed
- without a vote -

under Emergency Powers invoked by the* Civil Contingencies Act 2004*

AutumnCrow · 14/01/2019 17:37

How will the British govt shut websites down if they are hosted in the USA? E.g. the massively popular Squarespace service.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 17:38

How will the British govt shut websites down if they are hosted in the USA? E.g. the massively popular Squarespace service.

Google "cleanfeed"

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 17:38

Buteo
That is one serious tail!

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 17:39

So they could shut down Mumsnet
and cut off your phones in the UK, so you couldn't tell those of us abroad how things are really going 🤔

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 17:42

I'm pretty sure the UK wouldn't dare try to shut down US websites themselves - they'd ask Trumpet

but if they can shut down phone networks, they can stop a lot of Brits posting

Easilyflattered · 14/01/2019 17:42

I feel like I went to sleep in 2015 and have been living in some sort of weird existence
ever since, one where Donald Trump became president and where the UK government is considering the potential for food shortages.

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 17:45

{So they could shut down Mumsnet }
I might do some work then!

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 17:47

{I feel like I went to sleep in 2015 and have been living in some sort of weird existence
ever since, one where Donald Trump became president and where the UK government is considering the potential for food shortages.}
Go to sleep until after 30 March you might feel you are on the set of Dr Who.