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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 11:25

{ like austerity. In fact I think that's exactly where the UK is headed. }
Any 'leaving' will be austerity on steroids. Trade deals, even if 'good' will not replace manufacturing and financial industry leaving, and the severe curtailment through tariffs and extra 'red tape' and still no one has suggested how these will be replaced. Trading (the buying stuff into the UK) is less than half the necessary deal. To prosper the UK HAS to 'sell' more than it 'buys'. As it is not self sufficient in food, that is a massive constant 'drain' on this process. Thus to 'break even' it obviously has to 'manufacture' more than the cost of importing food.

BiglyBadgers · 14/01/2019 11:26

DRG AIUI the idea is that if it is passed, it prevents no-deal happening without a further parliamentary vote.

But what would happen instead if no deal? At the moment no deal is the default so to prevent it there has to be agreement about what the new default would be. Does the amendment do that?

I'm so confused by all these amendments flying about. I can't keep track.

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 11:28

I think there is a lot of people with dark fears at the moment.Sad
Mays speech is SHIT.

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 11:29

{I have this recurring vision of some Grand Chess Master brooding over the board, with many moves ahead already planned. Simply because he can.}
I think right idea but wrong game. With Russia, the USA, China, the EU and 'others' all players although some with different goals and tactics.
Cluedo?

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 11:30

Repeat, repeat, regurgitate, regurgitate and then SPIT the damn WA into the bin!!!

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 11:31
Grinchly · 14/01/2019 11:34

I agree with Bellini. A PV with no deal as an option is inviting disaster. Also, as I've said before, I am sure there are people ill informed enough to think 'no deal' equals status quo.

There are a lot of stupid people out there, and a lot of gullible ones too. This thread is an exceptional island of sanity and reason. But we mustn't make the mistake of extrapolating the level,of discussion and critical thinking shown here, too widely.

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 11:40

That’s why I’ve always been opposed to a PV in principle as anything other than a very last resort. It could go spectacularly wrong.

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 11:40

The people who would vote for No Deal are the very ones who have no idea of the consequences.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 11:42

But what would happen instead if no deal? At the moment no deal is the default so to prevent it there has to be agreement about what the new default would be. Does the amendment do that?

I'm no lawmaker, and can't speak to the detail of the Benn amendment. All I know is that it is an amendment and as such needs to be attached to a main bill - the intention being the WA.

If there is no vote on the WA (like before Xmas) all and any amendments are moot.

I can easily imagine Theresa May pulling the vote at the last minute and dashing off to Brussels with a desperate "I told you they wouldn't go for it" sort of whine, followed by "surely you can make changes for me". I can imagine it, because she's the epitome of the entitled self-important Tory, and she really cannot conceive of a situation where she won't get what she wants.

Other commentators I tune into have started suggesting a scenario where we get to March 28th, and she revokes and resigns in one move, saying "I tried to honour the referendum ... but since I had no support, Brexit's off". Their "logic" being she can't be more despised than she is now, and a revoked Brexit might be better for the Tory party than a no deal Brexit in terms of dealing with "the Corbyn".

umpteennamechanges · 14/01/2019 11:46

@BiglyBadgers

Parliament can make as many amendments as it likes about 'no deal' not being an option but as far as I understand it unless the WA is agreed, we extend (with EU agreement) or revoke we will still be crashing out with no deal on 29/3 as EU law takes precedent over domestic law.

It really only helps in terms of showing (if it passes) that Parliament don't want a no deal which pushes things towards an extension. Again though we get into discussing whether or not the EU will agree to an extension. We'd have to form some sort of view of 'if not the WA, then what?'. Options to Parlt to vote on? PV?

We'd need to at least decide on next steps before they'd agree...

Motheroffourdragons · 14/01/2019 11:46

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Member745520 · 14/01/2019 11:50

@1tisILeClerc Cluedo?

Ah. Never played Cluedo. I shall have to look into it. I obviously need even more education than I thought I did Grin

@ Sostenueto

whymewhynow · 14/01/2019 11:50

leclerc - please don't call Sadiq Khan an outsider (relative or otherwise) based on his parentage. It's insulting for him and all the rest of us who are migrants ourselves or the children of migrants.

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 11:50

How many do think the vote will be pulled?

BiglyBadgers · 14/01/2019 11:55

That's my understanding as well umpteen. I keep seeing people talking about amendments blocking no deal but I just can't see how they can unless they create a new legally binding default option. If this isn't the case then it's just another symbolic vote and really doesn't take us much further forward that I can see.

And as DRG says it doesn't matter anyway if May pulls the WA vote at the last minute.

DarlingNikita · 14/01/2019 11:56

She'll look even more weak if she pulls it again.

SusanWalker · 14/01/2019 11:57

I like the phrase project hope. It will depend on what arguments are backing it up though.

I also agree that Sadiq Khan is not a relative outsider. He's a Londoner and a brit through and through.

BiglyBadgers · 14/01/2019 12:01

Just popped into the guardian site and saw "May says Brexit could be halted if her deal gets voted down" and wondered if we can get that in writing.

Somerville · 14/01/2019 12:04

Sadiq Khan was born in Tooting and is as British as you are, leClerc Hmm

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 12:06

How many do think the vote will be pulled?

me, obviously.

Looks like the press are being spoon fed the idea that it's all Corbyns fault, and if he really, really, really supported Brexit, he'd back the WA. Which underscores the fact that Theresa May is acting as if her sodding WA is "Brexit". Which is all very well until you hear the ERG pointing out (correctly in this case) that it most certainly is not "Brexit".

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 12:09

The vote will go ahead (sorry DGR)

It is now embedded in May's plans - win or lose. She thinks she can continue to crisis manage the situation. I think at some point soon she will lose control things, but I'm not sure how or to who. There is just a mood change again.

I think she will lose tomorrows vote but it won't be up in the 200s as a defeat as was feared. But I still think it will be high 100s.

Tom Barton @tombarton
NEW: Bedfordshire MP @AndrewSelous has changed his mind about tomorrow's vote. In December he said he would vote against, today he writes: "it is my duty and the correct course of action ... to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement"

Full statement: www.facebook.com/AndrewSelousMP/?ref=settings

That makes 6 who have changed their minds.

I don't know.

I've just started watching the Uncivil War this morning with DH (he's just gone to pick up DS so I'm only a 1/3 of the way through) and hmmm yes... its interesting and some aspects of Dominic Cummings remind me of someone I know in real life. Its reminding me of just how little we have learnt since the ref. I get Cummings ideology, but its dangerous and hes an ideas man who takes a sledge hammer approach, but is absoluetely isn't a builder.

I've always been luke warm on a 2nd ref. Its fine as an idea to facilitate a move away from the path we are on. But I think my worst fears about doing it all over again are only getting stronger. Its a bad, bad idea if No Deal is on the paper. I don't believe that people who think they can reverse the result don't get the original result. Still.

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Mrsr8 · 14/01/2019 12:12

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/01/2019 12:13

The HoC cannot override international law - which A50 is

Unless the UK chooses WA or Revoke - or the EU agrees to an extension - the UK will automatically Brexit without a deal

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 12:14

Meanwhile here's 'Dumb Dom' doing a speech.

Arj Singh @singharj
Former Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab says “Britain can do better” than Theresa May’s deal.

Claims UK has a significant economic advantage if it goes alone.

Speech widely being seen as a leadership pitch.

Raab takes on claims Brexiteers are chasing unicorns by saying London has more tech giant unicorns than any other EU city (36). Not sure that addresses the argument, but he appeals to “economic self belief”

Raab says Labour have correctly diagnosed problem of crony capitalism but don’t have the solution, which should be more competition

This speech is littered with references to Raab’s impressive CV

Raab outlining plans to target rip off energy and phone bills. Says competition regulator should be given power to issue “Acbos” against firms’ anti-competitive practices

Raab wants to give voters a national insurance tax cut by raising the threshold at which it is paid

Raab says business shareholders should be empowered to sack underperforming chief execs and approve or deny their pay packets.

Raab “won’t be drawn” on whether he wants to be Tory leader. So he does.

Raab says we should “move on” from Tory confidence vote in Theresa May. He was one of the highest profile MPs to declare the PM’s position untenable

Raab says “there will be short term risks” in a no-deal Brexit.

This man is thick.

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