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Brexit

Westminstenders: The WA Vote ReDux

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/01/2019 23:01

Tuesday is scheduled to be the date of the Withdrawal Agreement Vote.

The current expectation is it will fail to pass. Badly.

If this is the case then May will have to report to the HoC about what her Plan B is within 3 sitting days under Grieve IV - by the end of Monday 21st January (which was the original date that Grieve III set).

Its being reported that if it fails that May will make some sort of statement either late on Tuesday or Wednesday before flying to Brussels in order to try and calm the markets.

This weekend has been full of politicking to position to get the WA to pass. Some of this is to push those who think that May will revoke or extent which will endanger leaving and some of it is to push those who fear no deal. Nothing is likely to be exactly what it appears.

The feeling is that No10 is currently working more to keep the defeat as small as possible in order to keep alive the possibility of representing the WA to parliament at a later date.

This week has seen big announcements from the car industry; none of which have been unexpected and some of which were connected to technology change and were likely to have been an inevitability to some extent, but the timing the week before the vote should also focus some minds.

We've had the news that 4000 civil servants from the following departments - Defence, International Development, Work and Pensions and the Education department - being lined up to handle no deal brexit, with secondments of up to 6 months. (The idea that staff from W&P might be moved with all the problems with UC is mind boggling).

We've also had the rumour that May has spoken to the Tory MEPs to inform them that if there is a chance of extending a50 and this means the UK would take part in June's European Elections. Many of the newspapers have been reporting this weekend that there is a high chance that the UK will not leave the EU on the 29th March as scheduled leading to the pound rising to its highest level in 7 months.

Dominic Grieve has stated the following, and I think its worth keeping an eye on.

Jack Maidment @jrmaidment
Dominic Grieve: Govt should immediately remove Brexit date from domestic law if it loses on Tuesday.

"without doing that there is no point in going to the EU and asking for an extension because we would still be crashing out and that would have to be, I think, a top priority"

It has been somewhat misinterpreted in some quarters as Grieve suggesting we change the UK's exit date. Its not. Its a reference to how UK law has a date set in it, so even if we did get an extension UK law would in effect automatically exit us legally on a domestic level, even if on an international level we were still members. This creates a bit of an issue whereby parliament would have to vote to make this change somehow, which would need to be facilitated by the government in some way - which means coming from the PM which obviously will be somewhat problematic for the cohesiveness of the Tory Party.

Indeed The Sunday Telegraph is tonight reporting that the Tories are on the brink of an historic split, with Brexiteers and Remainers both threatening to 'torpedo the Government if they do not get their way on Brexit'.

Pro-EU Mps are claiming that a third of the Cabinet would resign if May pursued a no deal Brexit and that several senior minsters want May to immediately open talks with Labour MPs about a compromise involving a permanent customs union if her deal is defeated by a large margin.

Steve Baker is warning that this would risk a split in the party 'akin to the schism prompted by Robert Peel's repeal of the corn laws'. And Bernard Jenkin has said that any attempt to change the exit date or strike a deal with the Labour Party would destroy the Conservative Party. For once, its hard to argue with either of them and say they are completely wrong.

Of course this also doesn't seem to fit with Labour's plans. The Observer is reporting that Corbyn plans to table a dramatic vote of no confidence in May as early as Tuesday evening in an attempt to force a GE. This is, to put it bluntly, fucking ridiculous. He would only need 7 Tory / DUP rebels (on top of the rest of the house) or some abstainers but it remains to be seen who these would be. A three line whip for Tuesday night, including for all unwell MPs is in effect for Labour.

Both the Mail on Sunday and The Sunday Times lead with similar stories about changing the rules of the HoC in order to effectively sideline the PM. The Mail refers to it as a plot between Grieve and Bercow, but the Times is much more broad stating:

A cross party group of senior backbenchers - including former Tory Ministers - plan what one senior figure branded a "very British coup" if May loses the crunch vote on her Brexit deal on Tuesday

At least two groups of rebel MPs are plotting to change Commons rules so motions proposed by backbenchers take precedence over government business, upending the centuries old relationship between executive and legislature.

Downing Street believe that would enable MPs to suspend article 50, putting Brexit on hold, and could even lead to the referendum result being overturned - a move that would plunge the country into a constitutional crisis.

The funny thing about all this news is at no point have I seen discussed whether we could extend a50 as it stands - as thats down to the EU. And at no point have I seen anything about how the EU would facilitate ratifying the WA at the eleventh hour if we have to go for round 2.

Indeed the growing feeling does seem to be largely that one way or another the WA is dead in the water if it has a large defeat. The question is perhaps now, what will the ERG do in this context? Will they plough on trying to persue No Deal? Because that too would surely lead to a split in the Tory party in some way.

A cross party group referred to the 'Norway Group' (Boles, Letwin, Morgan and Kinock) are apparently planning according to Boles, to make No Deal illegal.

So to put it mildly, next week is looking absoluetely mind blowingly crazy and likely to be explosive in some way or another.

And finally. Here's a handy tool for you.
How Many Days Until Brexit Timer

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MissMalice · 14/01/2019 10:44

Last figures I saw predicted she’d lose by something like 228 votes. A shift of 4 is neither here nor there.

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 10:45

Still I have this feeling of outside influence on this WA vote.Sad

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 10:48

Well malice it all depends on just how much courage is out there in the next 24 hours. With all the bullying, blackmailing, sweeteners offered its really a lottery at the end of the day as to whether MPs can hold out against Mays onslaught.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/01/2019 10:50

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

borntobequiet · 14/01/2019 10:52

Of course there are outside influences - all of us writing to MPs, businesses of all sorts contacting them, everyone's a stakeholder, including the EU. MPs don't operate in a vacuum, even when they would prefer to.

Buteo · 14/01/2019 10:54

From The New European:

The prime minister is set to use a speech in Stoke-on-Trent today to urge MPs to back her Brexit deal, using the referendum to establish the Assembly in Cardiff Bay - which was won by a margin of just 0.3% - as an example.

She will claim that all parties then accepted and backed the decision of the poll.

But in actual fact when the legislation came before Parliament in December 1997 May herself voted to block it.

And the Conservatives went into the 2005 general election with a manifesto pledging a new vote for the people on Wales, including an option to abolish the Assembly.

Great thread from Steve Peers on Twitter about this too.

Here it is: the 2005 Conservative manifesto, obviously not accepting the 1997 referendum result, and calling for...wait for it...another referendum

And before anyone says that there's a distinction because the Welsh referendum result had been implemented, the Tories voted against applying the result before it was implemented

No wait, there's more, the Prime Minister herself indeed voted against implementing the result of the Welsh referendum, contrary to the quite outrageous lie she plans to utter later today

Indeed, quite a number of Brexiters voted against giving effect to the result of the Welsh referendum...

Bonus: the Prime Minister and other Brexiters voting against setting up the Scottish parliament before implementing that 1997 referendum result, despite a much bigger vote in favour

There it is: Paterson voting against the bill to implement the result of the Welsh referendum. Saboteur! Cave dweller! Enemy of the peeeeple!

Bernard Jenkin, querying whether the Welsh referendum result had sufficient "democratic consent"

Jenkin also voting not to implement the result of the Welsh referendum, as it lacked "broad and informed consent" and would give rise to "many years of argument"...SABOTEUR

Also voting against implementing the result of the Welsh referendum: Fox, Redwood, Davis, Fabricant, IDS and...drum roll please...Theresa May

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 10:57

Letters? What good are letters of reassurance? They are worth nothing!

Motheroffourdragons · 14/01/2019 10:57

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 10:59

There was never any reason to think that the Welsh had changed their mind. And having a Welsh assembly didn’t disadvantage the people who didn’t vote for it.

Whereas, according to the polls, the people have changed their mind since the Brexit referendum now they have a better idea of what it actually entails.The government is not acknowledging it because they have their own agenda.

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 11:00

buteoShock

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 11:01

www.politico.eu/article/vienna-convention-brexit-1969-treaty-that-could-help-uk-slip-trap/amp/
The 1969 treaty that could help the UK slip a Brexit trap

This is the Vienna Convention Exit argument.

It's is important to understand.

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RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 11:03

Adam Bienkov @ adambienkov
Boris Johnson tells LBC that he's "not sure" that the chief executive of Jaguar Land Rover knows more about the car manufacturing industry than he does.

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Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 11:04

Yes I was mother but not sure what that dark influence is. Whether it emanates from EU, Russia or US. Although it looks like we are heading to destroy our own country by our own hands I just have a very ominous, sick, deep down feeling that this is all being maneuvered maliciously by an outside influence.

RedToothBrush · 14/01/2019 11:06

Steven Swinford @steven_swinford
Any attempts to get an end date in backstop in the exchange of letters appear to have gone out of the window.

The European Commission is saying it will 'apply temporarily unless or until it is superceded'. It says it has a 'legal value'

See the Vienna Convention article above... The legal value bit is a reference to that argument.

And that'll be why the EU has also refused to give more clarification now. For legal reasons.

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Violetparis · 14/01/2019 11:08

The Survation poll I saw at the weekend had Remain 51%, Leave 49%. I'm really not convinced a PV would result in a win for Remain and a small win wouldn't resolve anything.

Sostenueto · 14/01/2019 11:10

There are plenty that would benefit from our demise. There are plenty in this country that would benefit from our demise. Gosh! I think I need to take a happy pillShock

bellinisurge · 14/01/2019 11:14

A PV with no Deal as an option is inviting disaster. Some people are stupid enough to vote specifically for No Deal. Don't give them the chance.
Yes, I used the S word because there is no other word. Ok, maybe gullible. I'll concede gullible.

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 11:15

The Vienna Convention is the means by with the headbangers get out of the WA which is what they have been intending all along.

As I’ve said before they think UK can renege on WA terms in general because none of it dictates our future trade relationship. Their plan is a trade deal with US and maybe join CPTPP to be in direct competition with EU. The particular threat is of Trump's USA & ERG & cohorts breaking the Single Market via an open border.

Apileofballyhoo · 14/01/2019 11:16

So there is nothing to stop an end result of pulling out of the backstop except tariffs would be similar to or higher than no deal, Red, if I understand correctly. It's what I've always said about the WA, if it's passed it's absolutely no guarantee that things won't end up a great deal worse anyway. Unfortunately it might be a drip drip effect, which makes things worse gradually so that people accept it more easily until it's too late - like austerity. In fact I think that's exactly where the UK is headed. A short sharp shock may make the electorate wake up and give a better chance of rejoining. It all depends on who's in power though. Which, I suppose has been the main problem all along.

That letter signed by Bo Jo et al - anywhere it mentions impact did you all note it's party that comes first? They are not even pretending country or people come first.

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 11:17

That should say think they can get out of the WA ^

1tisILeClerc · 14/01/2019 11:18

{Sadiq Khan has said today that he is planning to lead a Project Hope positive campaign about the EU if a PV happens...}
That sort of sums up the state of this mess. All best wishes for his success, but rather telling that a relative 'outsider' (family not originally from the UK ) is putting effort into positive action.
Shame on the MPs who are out to wreck the UK.

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 11:19

if it's passed it's absolutely no guarantee that things won't end up a great deal worse anyway.

Exactly.

DGRossetti · 14/01/2019 11:21

As I’ve said before they think UK can renege on WA terms in general because none of it dictates our future trade relationship. Their plan is a trade deal with US and maybe join CPTPP to be in direct competition with EU. The particular threat is of Trump's USA & ERG & cohorts breaking the Single Market via an open border.

The problem with that, is if the UK does renege, the EU will simply leverage the US and prevent any UK-US trade deals. After all, if you are a US company/state, and you do £100 million business with the EU, are you going to risk that for a £10 million deal with the UK ?

Remember the EU pretty much killed off US steel tariffs with pressure on Floridas orange industry.

As a lone player in the world, the UK hasn't really got the clout to go up against a bloc of 27.

Incidentally, given the tenor of Theresa Mays "it's my deal, or no Brexit", who's "project fear" now ?????????

Member745520 · 14/01/2019 11:22

@Sostenueto Yes I was mother but not sure what that dark influence is. Whether it emanates from EU, Russia or US. Although it looks like we are heading to destroy our own country by our own hands I just have a very ominous, sick, deep down feeling that this is all being maneuvered maliciously by an outside influence.

I have this recurring vision of some Grand Chess Master brooding over the board, with many moves ahead already planned. Simply because he can.

TatianaLarina · 14/01/2019 11:23

One has to bear in mind that the headbangers are bonkers. None of it is really rational.